New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to get

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CaptainFeatherSword
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New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to get

Post by CaptainFeatherSword » Jun 22nd, '17, 23:34

Hi, I live in the blue mountains, NSW. I currently don't own a boat, but I spent a few days catching up with a good mate who for the past few years since I have seen him has been living on his Herreshoff 28. I am not about to go out and buy a 1950s ketch, as nice as that would be, but I am looking forward to hopefully getting a TS that I can tow behind my Subaru Outback (All wheel drive, 1500kg towing capacity when braked) in the next 6 months or so. I am compiling a list of suitable rigs but hope to expand a bit and potentially try a few different types out before I buy; and then the impulsive part of me says just go and buy a Farr, Castle, Sabre, Sonata, Catalina, Sunmaid or other somewhere around the 20 to 23 foot mark. Cruising with two adults and one or two kids, able to sail single handed. I would be keen to hear peoples suggestions of what boat to get.

Great forum, I have enjoyed reading what people have to say, Cheers!

CFS

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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by sailboatmike » Jun 22nd, '17, 23:43

1500Kg is your limiting factor, Sunmaid and Sabre would probably be off the list

What sort of budget are you looking at?
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PaulS
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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by PaulS » Jun 23rd, '17, 09:11

Hard to go past a Griffin GTS-17, Hartley TS16, Dennis, these are well below your 1500kg limit.

Careel 18, Hartley TS18 etc might be okay - add 30% to any weights/displacement you see on websites like SAILDATA as manufacturers loved to quote weights that didn't include motors, batteries, masts sails, trailer or anything useful for actually using a boat.

Unfortunatley I can't think of an affordable boat 21ft long that would ACTUALLY be in your towing range when measured on a weighbridge- eg Hartley TS21 has minimum weight of 903kg but most are 2000kg on a trailer....

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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by sailboatmike » Jun 23rd, '17, 10:11

The tandem trailer is a nasty to watch out for if its not really needed, many tandems can weigh around 450Kg on their own, not leaving much for the actual load (boat)
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CaptainFeatherSword
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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by CaptainFeatherSword » Jun 23rd, '17, 10:24

Budget around $10-12k for a good one that is ready to sail, normal expected maintenance over the years and reasonable resale in 5 to 10 years time. I had feeling some of the said boats would be a tad too heavy for my current car.

Have certainly thought about getting a slightly bigger car to keep TS options open. How would for example a Farr6000 or Castle650 be with current car?

And how are 16 and 18 footers to sleep in for 2 adults and two kids? I have presumed 20 foot minimum for the cruising I want to do, but I should probably consider the <20' options....

Good point about tandems, my preference would be for a single too :-)

Thanks for the help

CFS

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Cooper
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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by Cooper » Jun 23rd, '17, 10:42

CaptainFeatherSword wrote:Budget around $10-12k for a good one that is ready to sail, normal expected maintenance over the years and reasonable resale in 5 to 10 years time.
The way that prices are going I think your last criteria, resale, is not one to be considered. I would say buy one, then consider the money as spent and gone and just enjoy.. Eventually, when it's time to sell, believe that whatever you get for it is a bonus. It's less painful that way:lol:

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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by mees » Jun 23rd, '17, 10:47

You can keep a Farr 6000 under 1500 Kg if you don't load it up with gear to much. Boat is 900 to 1000 and trailer 340. Add the outboard and a few bits and pieces and that's your limit. Don't think there are many around for under 12K but certainly worth investigating. They are relatively spacious inside and suitable to sleep your family. No problem rigging, launching, sailing just by yourself and they sail well.

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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by Peter Yates » Jun 23rd, '17, 11:34

The idea of cruising with 2 adults and up to 2 kids depends entirely on how adaptable you all are. Some folk can cope with a family on a TS16 and no doubt younger families are more likely to be able to "cosy up" than older parents with gangly teens aboard.

In anything less than about 25 footers, you will find that you are falling over each other a fair bit and unlike caravans/tents, you can't always hop outside for a walk.

So if you are able to cope with sleeping/eating/toileting in a very confined space, the space available in many boats over say 18 feet may be enough. It often also comes down to the configuration of the cabin and cockpit. For example I believe the Ultimate 18 has more space inside than an RL24.

If you can cope with those limitations, the U18 may stay below 1500kgs. and they are a well known brand with a good reputation for re-sale purposes. My favourite is the Investigator 563 which is a bit smaller inside than the U18, but decent sized bunks with no centreboard intrusion. If you are a beginner, the I563 also provides great stability without the complications of a heavy swing keel. Having the mainsheet on the transom also keeps the cockpit clear for moving about.
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CaptainFeatherSword
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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by CaptainFeatherSword » Jun 23rd, '17, 13:22

Ultimate 18. Nice suggestion! I will certainly be trying to at least have a look at one of those.

I feel that on longer trips it will mostly be two of us. 4 on board might be reserved for day trips or trips where landing options are plentiful. We won't exactly be crossing oceans :-)

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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by zebedee » Jun 23rd, '17, 14:32

The standard single axle with Ford bearings is rated 1450kg, so the vast majority of single axle trailers are no more than about 1500kg; anything on a tandem trailer would have been heavier than 1500kg on a single axle, and also has another ~120kg of axle and wheels, so it's well past 1500kg! So as a first approximation, you're looking for something on a single axle trailer, but obviously ask here if in doubt, and regardless of our answers, get it weighed at a public weighbridge before closing a deal.

I've got a Castle over 1500kg, (on a slightly exotic 1600kg single axle) but it appears to be a heavy example; they're usually under 1500kg. I like my Castle!
RL24s are significantly lighter than their length suggests, down around 1200-1300kg on a single axle trailer.
Ultimate 18s are worth a look, as are the various 20 foot and 6 metre boats which should mostly be within your weight and price budgets.
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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by MartinDreaming » Jun 23rd, '17, 22:15

Regarding weights, I got my trailer weighed at a weighbridge yesterday, without the boat.

Single axle Kessner Tilt Trailer with some repairs = 380 kg (approx). I was told the weighbridge is accurate to plus or minus 20kg, which seems a lot.

This is for a 20ft Austral 20, which is probably on the heavy end of the 20ft boat range because of its solid GRP hull construction. The literature gives a displacement of 816 kg, but that might not include battery (27 kg) 2 stroke 6HP outboard (29 kg) and other general clobber.

So, adding the displacement to the trailer weight gives a total towing weight of, maybe, 1300 kg. I would not be surprised if it gets up to about 1600 kg.

I'll get the trailer re-weighed with everything on it, but that's waiting on completion of my keel refurbishment project and getting the boat back on the trailer.
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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by MartinDreaming » Jun 23rd, '17, 22:25

CaptainFeatherSword wrote:And how are 16 and 18 footers to sleep in for 2 adults and two kids? I have presumed 20 foot minimum for the cruising I want to do, but I should probably consider the <20' options....
Living on a trailer sailer is a bit like living in a dome tent, which includes a toilet. In terms of comfort, it depends on how cozy you're prepared to be. If you're about 6 ft, and you need to stand upright, you'll need an RL28 or a pop-top. My Austral 20 has a 'headroom' of about 1.3m, floor to ceiling in the highest part of the cabin, so moving around in the cabin is all about crabbing along the bunk seats.

On a separate note, I'm comfortable launching, sailing and retrieving it single-handed. It just takes some practice and patience to learn how.
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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by sailboatmike » Jun 24th, '17, 01:48

I would think a good cockpit tent would be essential for any more than 2 on a 20 footer for any period of time, of course side curtains for the cockpit tent would be even better to maximise living space.

Smaller boat is always going to require more compromises such as head room and privacy when going to the loo
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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by CaptainFeatherSword » Jun 25th, '17, 00:04

Farr6000 seems to be the front runner at the moment. But how would one of these compare to a Sonata 6 for example? I ask in terms of internal space and comfort, speed, weight on the trailer and overall ease of use. Please continue to suggest important factors that I haven't considered, plus other boats.

The 18 foot options seem great, I have had time now research the Griffin, Careel and Ultimate. They all seem really nice options, but I currently believe a Farr6000 would be slightly more roomy and comfortable. Would it be and would a Sonata 6 be?

Cheers,

CFS

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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by zebedee » Jun 25th, '17, 01:00

Buying a trailer sailer isn't really like buying a used car, where you can decide you want a Falcon or a Corolla and then go out and look at a dozen or more in a couple of weeks then buy a good one at a good price.

Buying a boat is more like buying real estate; pricing and condition of 30 year old boats is so variable that you really need to have a sense of what you need and what is around, then sit and wait for a good example of something you're happy to live with goes past at a sensible price.

It may be that what turns up is something you hadn't really considered beforehand. Certainly that's been my experience with both my home and my boat.
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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by INMA » Jun 25th, '17, 07:31

RL24 Mk4 cruiser Mariner 5 2 stroke

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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by Peter Yates » Jun 25th, '17, 09:30

The other factor is the "sailability" of your potential boat. Many of us buy without having a sail on the boat. I know I have bought over a dozen TS over many years and only test-sailed a handful of them.

As a result I got some nasty surprises, especially in terms of things like excessive weather helm and lack of pointing ability. This can be especially true for "orphan" boats or modified boats. Even some well know designs like the Hartley TS18 are reputed to have issues with weather helm.

So ideally go for a test sail or otherwise go for a well known type of boat so that you can get feedback from other owners before buying.

The only trouble with a test sail is that most people who are busting to get a boat will instantly fall in love with any boat once out on the water, despite it's shortcomings. There is also the feeling of obligation to the owner who goes to that amount of trouble to demonstrate the boat.

The Farr 6000 seems to get pretty good reviews generally, as do the U18 and Investigator 563.
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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by sailboatmike » Jun 25th, '17, 09:40

Im wondering if a nice Boomerang 20 or B63 would fit withing the weight limit, like any boat a trip to the weigh bridge before handing over the cash would be prudent as owners can make some extravagant claims of the weight of their boat on the trailer, many really wouldnt have a clue
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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by Peter Yates » Jun 25th, '17, 10:54

sailboatmike wrote:Im wondering if a nice Boomerang 20 or B63 would fit withing the weight limit, like any boat a trip to the weigh bridge before handing over the cash would be prudent as owners can make some extravagant claims of the weight of their boat on the trailer, many really wouldnt have a clue


Sounds outlandish, but doubling the factory weight figure will usually be close to the "real world" weight of trailer. boat and typical on board gear.

My last SC25 had a factory figure of 1600kgs and weighed 3,000kgs with all the above. From memory I did weigh one of my I563's which are 750kg ex-factory and on the trailer it came to over 1200kgs.

Gypsy is 300kgs and I am guessing at about 500kgs with the lot.
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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by Peter Yates » Jun 25th, '17, 10:57



Might be a bit over 1500kg although only a single axle trailer. The boat alone is about 1,000kg.
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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by CaptainFeatherSword » Jun 25th, '17, 22:03

Good idea to check out EBay. I've been mostly searching boatsales.com.au and gumtree.

I have been considering the Catalinas/boomerangs. Thanks for pointing one out :-)

I am optimistic that when on the weigh bridge they would be under 1500kg.

I am still very interested in Sonatas. Which size could feasibly be under 1500kg? Would it just be the 6m version or some of the larger ones too?

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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by CaptainFeatherSword » Jun 25th, '17, 22:05

And what about furling headsails? Can they be weight saving as you might require a smaller wardrobe? Or does the mechanical part make them even heavier? I love the concept but have never sailed with one. I hear you usually carry a storm jib for windward sailing in heavier weather, is there much truth in this?

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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by sailboatmike » Jun 25th, '17, 23:06

CaptainFeatherSword wrote:And what about furling headsails? Can they be weight saving as you might require a smaller wardrobe? Or does the mechanical part make them even heavier? I love the concept but have never sailed with one. I hear you usually carry a storm jib for windward sailing in heavier weather, is there much truth in this?
Furlers do add weight and sometime lack flexibility in sail choice, but for cruising I love mine, I find 110% jib works well in most conditions, takes seconds to reduce or remove sail, sail shape can suffer when furled but many sail makers change the shape of the sail foot if they know its going on a furler. the only time its a problem is if you want more sail, then its a pain changing from a jib to a genoa
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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by zebedee » Jun 25th, '17, 23:28

CaptainFeatherSword wrote:And what about furling headsails?
Cue bunfight on the relative merits of furling headsails versus hanked headsails with a pull down line!
Can they be weight saving as you might require a smaller wardrobe?
Do not confuse roller furling (complete removal of the sail from the wind) with roller reefing (reduction in sail area); they are not the same thing!

Often a furler will make sail changes more difficult than a simple hanked jib, but that doesn't turn a half furled genoa into a useful jib; it just forces you to think a bit harder about which sail to fit when rigging.
Or does the mechanical part make them even heavier? I love the concept but have never sailed with one.
A furler which works right is a wonderous thing. A furler which is not yet properly sorted is an endless source of entertainment/frustration/hazard, depending upon how windy it is. I believe I have my furler worked out now, but it is an unusual hybrid design which furls hanked jibs, which just upsets everyone!
I hear you usually carry a storm jib for windward sailing in heavier weather, is there much truth in this?
I own a storm jib. It lives in the spare room at home. If the conditions are wild enough to need it, then either A) I'm not out there anyway, or B) I'm motoring for shelter, probably as a result of underestimating Lake King in a westerly blow, and the last thing I want to do is to prolong my punishment by trying to tack into the wind.
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Re: New member intro plus a question about which sailboat to

Post by sailboatmike » Jun 26th, '17, 06:38

My furler is roller reefing for the headsail, means I only carry one headsail actually on the boat, genoa is tucked up in the garage in my sail loft with a couple of dozen other sails I have collected from different boats
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