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PostPosted: Jun 26th, '17, 06:51 
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When buying a secondhand yacht, its generally better to buy a well sorted yacht on a good trailer and avoid projects.

Budget to replace safety gear including the outboard but a good buy won't need improvements to the yacht rig etc.

There have been some good project yachts around but most are next to worthless when you work out the cost of repairs all done while you can't sail.

Any yacht you buy will need to be sold one day, its good to buy a yacht that will sell quickly when you need to sell. There is always demand for good well maintained trailers with good yachts on them, an active association also helps.

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PostPosted: Jun 26th, '17, 20:51 
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It all depends INMA, I bought a old neglected Sonata 8, I totally gutted it and started from scratch, price wise you might be right because I could have bought one in decent condition for the money it has cost me in the end. However now I have a yacht that is how I want it and I don't have to deal with other owners mods that would annoy me, I have a new set of over sized self tailing winches new running rigging, new standing rigging all things you would like to replace anyway because you don't know the last time it had been renewed. All new blocks and travellers new paint job new electrics and wiring and so on. sorry to carry on, but the amount of time I spent on it could never be repaid. I did however really enjoy the time I spent rebuilding her and I now know the boat from front to back in and out so I am happy I did and you be amazed the amount 30 year old corroded fittings I came across and replaced. I am surprised the last owner not lost the rig on his last sail.
But you are right if you not enjoy the project and don't know what you are in for don't go there.

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PostPosted: Jun 26th, '17, 22:29 
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I agree with Gezza. It is about working out what needs replacing and fixing - and knowing what it will cost - if it's too much then walk away if not then consider it if you are up to it.

I have rebuilt boats and when done they do not suffer from hidden issues - I know that the wiring is good, crutial bits are new or sevicable and fit for the job at hand.

Most boats need work doing - most of our boats are 20-40 years old, to buy one trusting that nothing needs checking, replacing, fixing or renewing is unrealistic in my view. Paying top price expecting that all will be well may also be unrealistic in many cases - if you find a good one then great - but I go in thinking that at least the motor, sails, rigging, may need replacing soon..... getting it cheap means that some bits may be replaced early on and give a good servicable life - just don't buy something that needs everything replacing !

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PostPosted: Jun 27th, '17, 18:57 
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Thanks for all of the great advice everybody. It is invaluable! Many concepts to be considered. And I'm continuing with the necessary research. And my current list of what i consider suitable boats is as follows:

Farr6000
Careel18
Ultimate18
Investigator563
Sonata6
Hartley18
Catalina22/boomaroo
Boomerang20 (what do people think about the boatsales.com one moored at williamstown that comes without a trailer? )

Others that I'm open to but not sure about their weight given my 1500kg towing capacity are:
Timpenny670
Sabre22

I would also like to hear from someone who has owned a Sonata6. Any major issues with these? How do they sail? Good cruisers?

Thanks in advance:-)

CFS


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PostPosted: Jun 27th, '17, 22:21 
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I hope you weren't put off a Castle by mine being heavy?

If you can take your time finding a second hand trailer you've a good chance of finding something at a sensible price, but it's not something you want to have to find RIGHT NOW.

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PostPosted: Jun 27th, '17, 23:43 
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If a Castle 650 is no more than 1500kg on the trailer ready to cruise, then it is ON the list. I really like them too. I just checked the spreadsheet with TS specs that I found on TSP; it has them weighing 766kg. It looks promising! Would 766kg be correct for a Castle 650 without motor, battery, water, safety gear, trailer, stove, fuel, but with mast and sails?


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PostPosted: Jun 28th, '17, 00:00 
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IMHO the Castle would be the pick above all the aforementioned boats,
Timp 6.70's and Sonata 6's really are tiny boats internally
Your going to struggle to find a Farr 6000 thats much good in the price range

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PostPosted: Jun 28th, '17, 00:05 
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As I said earlier on, anything which is commonly on a single axle trailer should be under 1500kg.

My Castle is definitely on the heavy side on the trailer, and was 1420kg complete except outboard, with no extra gear when I bought it. Then I filled it up with stuff; batteries, solar, fridge, camping gear, etc! Even then it only hit 1600kg. I suspect my junk, a heavier gauge steel in the replacement trailer frame, and possibly extra lead ballast in the bilges. I'm pretty confident most Castles would be inside 1500kg.

I see now that the RL24 isn't on your list either; some are stripped out racing boats, but there are some very nice cruising RL24s around too, and they should definitely be under 1500kg.

I'm a fan of drop keels; swing keels seem to be maintenance intensive, but doubtless other people will disagree with me.

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PostPosted: Jun 28th, '17, 08:39 
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I disagree. Just didn't want to disappoint you Zeb. :)

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PostPosted: Jun 28th, '17, 09:28 
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Tell someone rebuilding their dagger board or trunk after grounding that swing keels are more labour intensive :lol:

Swing or drop is more about the waters you sail IMHO, Westernport is the home of the swing keelers due to its shoaling conditions

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PostPosted: Jun 28th, '17, 12:05 
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Agree that with centreboards it is probably horses for courses.

Over my multitudinous array of yachts, I have had very little trouble beyond a hinge bolt leak.

As I see it the following are the pros and cons:

Swinging
+ Able to swing up if they hit and obstacle as long as not locked down.
+ Less cabin intrusion.
+ in most cases easier to drop out for maintenance
- slight alteration of centre of resistance when partly down
- potential leaks around keel hinge bolt
- possible sound from lifting line if it an external line.
- sometimes harder to find a way to lock down

Drop
+ Less effect on centre of resistance when half up.
+ no external lifting line
+ easier to lock down
- More potential for water ingress from the top of the casing slot.
- Often harder to drop out
- Usually more cabin intrusion

In terms of hitting obstacles or running aground, a swing keel will generally have a less dramatic impact unless it is locked down. In boats like my CAL and the I563 as well as some others I have owned, there is no way of locking the swing keel down anyway, so what tends to happen is the keel just swings back to suit the shallower conditions with little or no damage. The drop keel will cause the whole boat to stop suddenly with some impact force on the keel casing which can cause damage. On the other hand when hitting a one-off obstacle as I did once (an old mooring train wheel), the swing keel on my Swanson Dart lifted over the obstacle and then dropped down again with minimal harm whereas a drop keel would have really been dramatic. Even then there is the situation where a swing keel can drop down suddenly after clearing the obstacle and "over-swing" beyond the vertical and possibly damage the front of the casing.

All in all lots of pros and cons for either type. What I would say is that the drop keel often has the edge in terms of being able to be locked down. But many swing keelers rely on internal ballast for self-righting anyway.

Sorry for the rant :oops:

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PostPosted: Jun 28th, '17, 12:29 
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pros and cons:

Swinging
+ Able to swing up if they hit and obstacle as long as not locked down. But if they do kick up over an obstacle most time will snap the keel cable as the obstacle passes
+ Less cabin intrusion. Disagree, as there is usually a long centre intrusion, and assotiated turbulence and some lack of hull rigidity.
+ in most cases easier to drop out for maintenance. Maybe but most come out underneath the boat which can be finger biting.
- slight alteration of centre of resistance when partly down
- potential leaks around keel hinge bolt
- possible sound from lifting line if it an external line.
- sometimes harder to find a way to lock down
- broken keel cable usually results in major damage to the front end of the case. Many Sonata 7's have had major water ingress due to this event.

Drop
+ Less effect on centre of resistance when half up.
+ no external lifting line
+ easier to lock down
- More potential for water ingress from the top of the casing slot. Full height keel case solves this plus provides a better compression post.
- Often harder to drop out. Easy to remove out the top. Sonata 26 is regularly pulled via a high shed beam.
- Usually more cabin intrusion. [i]LESS and provides a much stronger hull due to the smaller slot.

Just another view, having owned a swing keel Boomaroo 22 and now a drop keel Sonata 26.

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PostPosted: Jun 29th, '17, 00:59 
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Of the boats mentioned the Castle 650 and possibly the RL24 would be the largest that are still inder 1500 kg. Given your marginal tow capacity (when will Subaru do a 2 tonne tow vehicle..) you would need to get any boat thats close weighed before buying.
As for swing versus drop keels there are pros and cons. Generally drops are faster due to less drag underneath and while they can be damaged from grounding its probably not the main consideration when choosing a particular design. In a small boat a swing keel gives a more open cabin. I have a Castle 650 and we tend to play eye spy..'something beginning with K' a lot...'keelcase'..your turn. Compare that with an ultimate 18 for example.
A Castle will keep up with much larger boats in the right conditions but are considered tippy compared to more conservative designs. However dont be put off as their righting moment is up there with the best. I absolutely thrash mine and it seems to stay upright.
So it all depends what you want from a boat.

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PostPosted: Jun 29th, '17, 01:15 
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We're only tippy because we have a rig big enough for a 26 foot boat on a 21 foot hull! You can always reef and let the other 21 foot boats keep up!

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PostPosted: Jun 29th, '17, 08:00 
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Exactly Zeb. Yes the mast is 8.6m or something which is about a metre more than most boats that size.

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PostPosted: Jun 29th, '17, 12:02 
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deja vu
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14669


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PostPosted: Jun 29th, '17, 15:22 
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Castle 610 wrote:
Exactly Zeb. Yes the mast is 8.6m or something which is about a metre more than most boats that size.


It's been relevant for me lately in the great house search, since I need a space 9m long to fit the boat 8.7m long mast into, which future proofs the space nicely for a larger boat should insanity strike. For example a Noelex 25 mast is just 8m long on a 7.8m hull.

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PostPosted: Jun 30th, '17, 06:49 
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Now there is a benefit of gaff and gunter rigs..... :-)

PaulS

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PostPosted: Jul 16th, '17, 23:16 
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Hi All,

I haven't bought a boat yet. Still looking. Considering mainly the twenty footers at present, the ones my car can tow that is (1500kg). Boomerangs and Farrs. They are my flavour of the month, with Austral 20 and Sonata 6 there too. I probably can't afford a Castle 650.

Thanks again for all of the though provoking points raised on this thread.

CFS


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PostPosted: Jul 21st, '17, 09:00 
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I always put this one out there because I think they are great - Haines Hunter Tramp trimaran.
About a ton loaded up on the trailer with all your gear.
Plenty of room in the cockpit with room for expansion on the tramps, which the kids love. My family and I have spent a week doing what I call sail camping. Sail to an island and beach the boat, sleep in a tent on the beach. It is awesome. You can sleep on the boat as well if you like but we prefer beaching it. Porta potty and solar for fridge stay on the boat. Look up Haines Hunter Tramp on YouTube and I have a couple of videos of family outings.


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PostPosted: Jul 28th, '17, 16:21 
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The Haines Hunter Tramp looks good. I can see how they would be great to cruise on. I have never seen one in real life, but will certainly be looking out for them from now on. What are their main pros and cons? Are they easier or harder to setup/rig? Do they have any sort of keel that moves? Or rather no keel and therefore shallow draft all the time? Are they faster than a comparable single hull trailer sailer sloop? Thanks for the suggestion!

CFS


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PostPosted: Jul 28th, '17, 16:45 
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Easier to rig? Yes. No keel. I have sailed one at 12knts but I forget how much wind because it was long ago, but it wasn't that much.

Coops.

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PostPosted: Aug 24th, '17, 19:37 
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I have been looking at a few boats and still haven't found the perfect one. As a short term measure I invested in a dinghy. I'm still looking for the perfect 18-20 foot cruiser but for now the Northbridge Junior will do :-)


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PostPosted: Aug 24th, '17, 20:31 
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CaptainFeatherSword wrote:
I have been looking at a few boats and still haven't found the perfect one. As a short term measure I invested in a dinghy. I'm still looking for the perfect 18-20 foot cruiser but for now the Northbridge Junior will do :-)



There is no perfect boat! That doesn't mean we should stop looking though.

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PostPosted: Aug 25th, '17, 00:35 
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CaptainFeatherSword wrote:
I have been looking at a few boats and still haven't found the perfect one. As a short term measure I invested in a dinghy. I'm still looking for the perfect 18-20 foot cruiser but for now the Northbridge Junior will do :-)


You understand that you are now on the slippery slope to fleet ownership?

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