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PostPosted: Jun 22nd, '17, 23:25 
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Castle 610 wrote:
Well l got a local quote today for the same sail using the same fabric. Instead of $2650 the price was $1440. So $1200 cheaper!
Not saying the more expensive sail isn't good value more saying cheaper local prices are possible.
Happy to provide fetails via PM.


Wonder if the second quote sail is made overseas and he is just an agent, seems a huge difference

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PostPosted: Jun 23rd, '17, 09:55 
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Good point Mike. I havent specifically asked either but the language used indicates local production. However l will check.

Makes me think....
When local car production stopped and we got imports why didnt the price go down? A Ford Everest made in Thailand isnt cheaper than a Ford Territory made here for example. More expensive if anything.

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PostPosted: Jun 23rd, '17, 10:04 
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Its called profit margins, they make as much as they can, they are not going to discount something just because they get it cheaper.

Same as tyres, Dunlop moved overseas because it was too expensive to produce here (mind you the staff could buy tyres of $20ea) but the price didnt go down when their labour costs dropped for $40 p/h to $10 p/h or less.

At least I know my sails are genuine Doyle, while the original rubbish sails on Macs were also Doyle they were really made to the cheapest cost using inferior and thin sail cloth (hey a 26 foot boat on trailer ready to sail less motor sold for $14,900US), at that price point one cannot expect all the trimmings

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PostPosted: Jun 23rd, '17, 10:37 
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sailboatmike wrote:
Its called profit margins, they make as much as they can, they are not going to discount something just because they get it cheaper.


That is why they go into business. To make money. They will only discount if folks stop buying and I don't blame them for that at all.

Coops.

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PostPosted: Jun 26th, '17, 00:52 
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There are many things you need to consider.
Like EVERY other business they are in it to make a dollar, don't begrudge them that.
There are peak and trough periods so you can always negotiate different levels of pricing depending on time, just don't expect the result to be the same everywhere all the time. (try getting a low quote from a tradesman during peak periods)
Do not expect cheap/best pricing from someone you do not necessarily have a relationship with.
Don't expect offshore guys to provide anywhere near the level of support a local guy will give you after the product is delivered.
Don't expect to be able to compete with larger/regular customers for sailmakers time and favours especially at key times (ie christmas time)
Local sailmakers may well have offshore lofts provide the panels but finish the sail here and call it a local product. The design of the panels may or may not be local (usually depending on class)
My suggestion;
Try local guys first and shop around. There is usually a local guy who is well known in your class or area who can serve you best.
Make sure you are comparing apples with apples. there is more than just fabric to compare. Shape, finish, inclusions (battens, leech lines, numbers, bags)

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PostPosted: Jun 26th, '17, 06:28 
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I totally agree, everybody goes into business to make a profit, unfortunately some Australian business have not really woken up from the 1970's when they could just charge what they wanted because Australia was so isolated and these things called global trade and the internet didnt really exist in the hands of the consumer.

On the other hand, we all know that the support from the overseas loft cant possibly be as good due to their location and business costs here in Australia are higher but Australian businesses have to get used to the fact that its now a international market and I think there is not one person on here that would not support a local business if there was just a few hundred dollars difference in pricing, I know I certainly would, however when you get down to tin tacks, I probably saved around a thousand dollars on just my Assy, never mind the jib and the main it becomes difficult not to be price sensitive.

This being said, my number one reason for buying overseas was not actually price, my main reason was that the Mac is a real compromise boat and has sailing characteristics specific to itself due to its design concept, after weighing things up and reading the reviews of others with the same boat had passed on via forums I decided that to get the best sail cut for the boat it would be better to use a company that specialised in designing sails for the specific boat, The sails are made by a brand name loft (Doyle) and while I the sail cut and fabric I chose wasnt the top of the line pure racing specification it certainly wasnt the budget option.

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PostPosted: Jun 26th, '17, 18:07 
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Ok today was a great example of my above comment,
I can buy a new upgraded forestay from the USA, Retail price $76USD or $102AUD plus postage. http://shop.bwyachts.com/product-p/3117-1x0.htm
So I decided I will try the local rigger, support local business and all that, I gave them the details and they came back with the cost of $225.
Now lets break that down
I can buy the parts RETAIL (so they have already been marked up around 100%) for
10m of 4mm 1 x19 316 S/S $40
1 x S/S Stud with thread $15 (RONSTAN - RF1512M0404)
1 x 4mm S/S thimble $2.00
1 x swage to suit $2.00
Total cost RETAIL of parts - $59.00
Add a couple of swages, normally we will say at $15ea
Total $89.00

Now those are RETAIL prices I quoted and certainly not the cheapest prices I found, so they are already marked up so how on earth they managed to get to the cost of $225 just beats me.

I would of been happy to pay $100 or even $110 just for the convenience and support a local company. but is it any wonder people choose to import rather than be extorted, even just on principal

Edit Put in link to BWY part for reference

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PostPosted: Jun 26th, '17, 20:11 
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how much is the postage though Mike?

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PostPosted: Jun 26th, '17, 20:25 
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Even with postage, why do local businesses think they can ask prices that are over inflated, so in the end most people go indeed buy from overseas and then the local business complains they can't survive.
Sorry but if you can get a better price somewhere else, down the road or overseas you would take it, if they want to stay in business adjust your prices and you will get more business.

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PostPosted: Jun 26th, '17, 21:51 
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PaulS wrote:
how much is the postage though Mike?


Postage isnt too expensive, maybe $30, I cant check as they are asleep in the USA west coast now

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PostPosted: Jun 26th, '17, 22:35 
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I dont know who your local rigger is but l would be surprised if Discount Seamart would charge that much. I have had stays and shrouds done by them and dont recall it being that expensive.
I can also see that the manufacturer in the US where the boat is made could be the cheapest due to econonies of scale.

When comparing prices between Aus and the US you need to factor in cost of living, wages etc. We have a high std of living here but that makes getting things done very expensive.

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PostPosted: Jun 27th, '17, 00:08 
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I tried to get another quote this afternoon but they didnt answer their phone so will try again tomorrow.

Im sure I will get a better price, but this was just an example of what I was talking about in Australia, place feel they have the right to gouge into you for anything marine,

I know the cost of living is more expensive here than in other places but really, asking the best part of 3 times the realistic price and double a inflated price. for example I used the "by the meter" price I could buy the 1 x 19 if I bought a 300 meter reel like they would it works out at $1.65 a meter, not the $4 I worked on in my example. As I stated the prices I quoted are full RETAIL and not the cheapest price I could find, not wholesale as they would pay.

In reality their cost would be less than $30 plus labour, so lets double their cost and give them 1/2hr at $100 p/h (see Im not skimping)
so thats
$60 parts plus $50 labour = $110 then lets add GST @10% = $11 - Grand total $121, that still nowhere near $225 quoted, in fact its still less than 1/2 the quoted price

I know not all places are like this mob, but it is places like this that make people go overseas to buy stuff as they get the feeling they are being seriously ripped off here.

I know this place doesnt have a huge turnover so I decided to give them a go and see if I could put some money into a local small business, I guess they really dont want my business or the business of anyone that asks me for a recommendation of somewhere to buy chandlery from, so be it.

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PostPosted: Jun 27th, '17, 08:24 
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While its inflated, you also have to remember insurance, rent, wage, etc. How much profit would you do it for? Try reversing the calculation.


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PostPosted: Jun 27th, '17, 08:52 
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I have no issue with anyone making profit. But how much profit should one expect to make from each daily transaction??

The nominal figure most work on in retail is around 100% markup on stock cost, and around $25 p/h clear on labour.

But my figures are more than generous at $100 p/h labour and $60 of parts. And time allocation of 1/2hr should be plenty for someone that makes rigging for a living to make one 5/32" stay with 2 swages on.

OK, tell me how much profit you think they should expect to make on sale? Im really curious, maybe my expectations are a bit out of date

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PostPosted: Jun 28th, '17, 18:41 
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Looks like I need to try rigger number 3.
After ringing rigger number 2 the day before and getting no answer yesterday morning I emailed specifications and asking for a quote for the new forestay gave all my contact details and close of business today, no answer, not even a email acknowledging they got my phone message email with the specifications.

Whats wrong with Australian companies, dont they want work or would they rather sit and whinge that we all buy stuff overseas than give some customer service

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PostPosted: Jun 28th, '17, 19:10 
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sailboatmike wrote:
Whats wrong with Australian companies, dont they want work?


Did you tell him it was for a Mac ?

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PostPosted: Jun 28th, '17, 19:18 
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mees wrote:
sailboatmike wrote:
Whats wrong with Australian companies, dont they want work?


Did you tell him it was for a Mac ?


OMG your right, I shouldnt of said it was, I should of said it was for a sailboat :lol:

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PostPosted: Jun 30th, '17, 22:49 
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I ordered a large 'thing' (to keep away from forum rules) that was all this company in Melbourne makes. They said it would take a few months it ended up taking 14 months. When the bill arrived for $13K it included a $300 delivery fee. The delays had cost me over a grand in fees but when I rang it took over a week to get the managing director on the phone who gave me all sort of excuses (difficulty manufacturing in Australia etc) as to why it took so long and wouldn't wave the delivery fee saying that I had got the 'thing' cheaper because after a year the price had gone up - what can you say to a man like that?

No wonder we buy overseas - I could have had it made in the UK (!) and it would have arrived sooner...... Hard not to be cynical.

PaulS

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PostPosted: Jul 1st, '17, 00:28 
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Well the good news is Im the proud owner of a new forestay, made by No 3 Rigger, quoted price was $100 but it came to slightly less because I gave them the round figure of 10 meters and it was only around 8.5meters.

It was done while I had a cup of coffee and when it was ready I was happy to pay the quoted price, not the lesser price that it worked out to be due to the shorter length than quoted.

Quoted price from rigger No 3 was $100, thats less than 50% of the quote from Rigger No1 ($225) for the same product from a rigger with a better reputation.

I never did hear back from Rigger No 2

It pays to shop around and just not take the first quote thats thrown at you

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PostPosted: Jul 1st, '17, 00:57 
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So the lesson here is ring around. Life changing.

You should reference the winner, it's like you blokes make life harder than it has to be, keeping it secret. Wthell?!

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PostPosted: Jul 1st, '17, 07:08 
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Happy to say rigger No 3 was Superior Masts and Rigging at Yaringa Boat Harbour.

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PostPosted: Sep 27th, '17, 22:31 
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Our sails arrived last week.
6 days from loft in China to home.
I tracked them the whole way through TNT. They actually arrived earlier than promised.
Very happy so far.
Will provide a full review soon.

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PostPosted: Feb 14th, '18, 20:37 
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AZAmagnum wrote:
Our sails arrived last week.
6 days from loft in China to home.
I tracked them the whole way through TNT. They actually arrived earlier than promised.
Very happy so far.
Will provide a full review soon.


ok. A bit late but weve only just had some photos taken.
very happy with fit, quality, timeliness and everything else.
We will be using them for future sail purchases.
Here is our current Ross780 with Fareastsails dacron main and pen05 #1.


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PostPosted: Feb 21st, '18, 09:21 
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Not sure if I want to get into this debate?
But I am a sailmaker of 35+ years. I run my own loft these days after working with larger groups so am completely flexible about where and how I can make sails.
There are 4 components in a sail manufacture a bit like making a cake with eggs, flour, milk and sugar, go short on one of them and you affect the product.
In sails similar with Design, Material, labour and profit!

Design – I have no idea what others use but our sails are done on Smar Azure software.

Material- Assuming all is equal here. Although I know of some companies who use basic Rip stop nylon ( for drop sheets etc) for spinnakers not actual sail cloth. Beware of quoting, exotic names like high-performance and premium plus are actually budget cloths.

Labour- the big one, in terms of transparency, we make some of our sails completely in house, others sewn offshore and finished here and some made complete OS. For our larger sails we do utilise a couple of Sri Lankan sail lofts. They are both top end factories in terms of staff, machines and quality of life. We could outsource to cheaper facilities in China or Bangladesh where labour is cheap and inconsequential. But we choose to use a better facility and are quite transparent about our OS manufacturing and supply links in our quotes to these places.

Profit- This is the interesting and flexible one, we are all in business to make money. Our income allows us to live our lives and I can assure you we don’t hide away gold bricks from sailmaking. We regard ourselves as honest and transparent as above. Always reluctant to drop our profit to a point where we are just supplying a sail. We can offer a discount and take out some extras .

Regardless, just wanted to explain set up and thoughts from a local perspective.



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PostPosted: Mar 6th, '18, 17:55 
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New Main and Jib together with sail bags arrived from Fareast Sails today.
Received quote and confirmed 5thJan. Shipped 3rd. March arrived 6th March with apology for being slow due to one week holiday for Chinese New Year . Very thorough regarding measurements etc. Pretty Good. I cannot complain about quality as they look really well made I can’t wait to see how they fly .

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