new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

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juan
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new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by juan » Aug 8th, '18, 11:46

G'day, Juan from Canberra here.
Thinking about buying a trailer sailer. Main goal is cruising with family and teaching kids (8 and 9 yo) to sail. Here in Canberra and down the coast (e.g. Jervis Bay and other locations especially during summer). May also go racing with friends/kids.

I have many questions as you could imagine and been reading this forum and other places. I'll drop 2 or 3 questions here:

1- Ideally I would like not to have to change my current family car. It's a Nissan X-Trail 2WD Petrol and from what I've been reading can legally tow up to 2000kg with braked trailer but more realistically up to ~1600kg. Hasn't been easy linking trailer sailer models to towing cars, but I guess I would need to stay on the small/ light end of the spectrum if I want to tow with the x-trail

2- been reading a lot of good comments about the Castle 650. I also see there is a good and active fleet here in the Canberra Yacht club. Any forum members in Canberra who could show me his/her boat and have a chat? Happy to crew as well.

3- Looking for boats for sale in boatsales.com.au. There's only one Castle 650 currently offered there (owner around here?). Are there other places where I should be looking for boats for sale?

I'll leave it here for now, thanks for your help in advance.
Juan

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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by INMA » Aug 8th, '18, 14:02

Juan, welcome to TSP.

We have a good group of very knowledgeable sailors who will help when they have information to assist.

The Buy and Sell forum has an excellent thread of recently advertised trailer sailers.

I suggest that when you find an interesting yacht, start a new thread with a link to the advertisement and people will provide frank observations regarding that particular yacht and trailer.

Sailing with kids is great fun, joining a local yacht club is a great way to get the kids on the water whether you have a yacht or not. Most clubs have a training fleet of dingies and a training program for the kids. In my experience, another adult training your kids leaves you free to be the parent. When you cruise, you will be pleasantly surprised when they have developed the experience to skipper you around.

My last advice with the kids is enjoy the time, they grow up too quickly and your memories os sailing with them might be the best memories you hold.

As for buying a secondhand yacht, the trailer is very important. An old stuffed trailer is more trouble than the lot is worth. Walk away if the trailer is painted, has rust in the frame. If it has an old rusty axle and old car wheels, it will probably cost $2000 to replace them with new galvanised hardware. always check the trailer weight on a weight bridge with the trailer compliance plate. Most old trailers are overloaded and illegal.

Castles are an excellent yacht for your needs, look at other yachts in that displacement because there are bargains around. Soutcoast 22s, Farr 6000, Spyder 24 and Masram are examples of good yachts similar to the Castle.
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juan
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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by juan » Aug 8th, '18, 14:28

Hi INMA, thanks for your reply and advice.

I am a member with the ANU Sailing club in Canberra where I use their dinghies. These days doing a lot of racing in a Laser and sometimes creweing in Sharpies. I have taken my kids out in Pacers, and my daughter has done a week course (with the CYC) during the school holidays. She seems to enjoy it more than my son. I have also sailed a lot since being a child myself, I used to own a 25ft keelboat back when I was living in Argentina where I am from, and also sailed and raced there a lot with other people.
We have just came back from a week in the Whitsundays where we chartered a 39 ft (bareboat). Best holiday in Aus so far at least for me :).

But now I want my own trailerable which could host us for a night or two, even if the comfort is limited.

I've seen your RL24 for sale, looks good and light, probably ok for my car, but I am after something a bit more ready for overnighters.

Will have a look at the other options you propose. Thanks again.
Juan

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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by pdandy » Aug 8th, '18, 14:51

juan wrote:Hi INMA, thanks for your reply and advice.

I am a member with the ANU Sailing club in Canberra where I use their dinghies. These days doing a lot of racing in a Laser and sometimes creweing in Sharpies. I have taken my kids out in Pacers, and my daughter has done a week course (with the CYC) during the school holidays. She seems to enjoy it more than my son. I have also sailed a lot since being a child myself, I used to own a 25ft keelboat back when I was living in Argentina where I am from, and also sailed and raced there a lot with other people.
We have just came back from a week in the Whitsundays where we chartered a 39 ft (bareboat). Best holiday in Aus so far at least for me :).

But now I want my own trailerable which could host us for a night or two, even if the comfort is limited.

I've seen your RL24 for sale, looks good and light, probably ok for my car, but I am after something a bit more ready for overnighters.

Will have a look at the other options you propose. Thanks again.
Juan
If you look on the rl website you'll see the current national champions are the walsh and dwyer families - both families live and sail out of marlay point (Victoria) and they have raced/ cruised for many generations in rl 24's- whilst the boats are not palaces, they have reasonable accommodation and plenty of useable deck / cockpit space. They make a great race boat that can be cruised on, and can be very rewarding for a crew of 3 to race against castles - so if you come from a dinghy background don't ignore inmas boat (although realistically, his boat is set up for cruising and a drop keel rl isn't the best choice as a race boat that also cruises because they get penalised for the open modification rules on the drop keel rl vs swing keel- ie you are racing to a cbh based on stripped out highly modified rl's )

The castle 650 does offer better accommodation, but sometimes it's nice having a reason for the kids to get out of the cabin and sailing the boat (I have 3 kids 9-13 yo and sail a noelex 25 - there are days I wish it wasn't so comfortable in that cabin.....but then again there are days I'm REALY glad they can squabble inside :wink: )

For what it's worth, if I had 2 rather than 3 kids I'd be taking a very long look at inmas rl - mostly because getting my kids onto a more lively boat might get them more excited when we sail
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juan
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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by juan » Aug 8th, '18, 15:02

pdandy,

Thanks for that. I actually realised that I mixed up INMA and and another RL24 I saw in boatsales which looks very bare inside. (this one: https://www.boatsales.com.au/boats/deta ... D-3879766/ ).

Now I read INMA's description again and it's a good option for my needs. http://www.trailersailerplace.com.au/ph ... 37&t=15524

Juan

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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by INMA » Aug 8th, '18, 15:07

Juan, I had no desire to sell INMA to you, the other yachts I mentioned are better family cruising yachts.

I forgot to mention you will have a better chance of finding a good yacht interstate, be prepared to travel.

There are TSP members in most locations who will look at yachts and trailers for you before you need to inspect them.

Pdandy,thanks for those words. INMA is a factory drop keel which could easily returned to competitive racing. Emptied out, a bottom clean and new North sails and a champion crew could sail her to a win in most fleets. The gutted out racing RL24 are modified that much to try and catch up to yachts like INMA. That is enough off topic, back to Juan.
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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by zebedee » Aug 8th, '18, 15:09

I've got a Castle 650 and I'm familiar with Greg's RL24, Inma.
In my view, the interior space is similar in size, but very different in layout. The Castle has a great adult sized V berth, but the full height keel case is much more obtrusive. Greg, on the other hand, has commented on the space inside my Castle.

The Castle design is about ten years younger.
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juan
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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by juan » Aug 8th, '18, 15:25

Thanks guys, very good to hear all this.
Would you guys tow an RL24 or a Castle 650 with an X-Trail 2WD Petrol? (2.5 litre SUV)? I can convince wife about buying boat but if we need a bigger car my chances drop down very quickly :)
Recently I brought back a sharpie to Canberra from Wallagoot (near Eden) with my car and it was all good. Not sure how much heavier these other boats can get.

I'll pop up in the CYC this Sunday and talk to people there. The last race of the winter series is this Sunday.

Juan

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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by INMA » Aug 8th, '18, 15:46

Juan, I bought an early Xtrail to tow INMA.

There are good and bad models of Xtrail with respect to towing.

The 2.5 litre petrol engine is more than enough to tow 2000kg so they tow the 1500kg Rl or Castle fine.

Manual Xtrails have a flywheel that changes mass. the standard flywheel and clutch are fine to tow as long as the driver does not slip the clutch excessively If you need to do a lot of hard reversing, then the clutch can overheat. For most stuff like backing around the boat ramp there are no issues.

My Xtrail has a solid flywheel and heavyduty clutch which suited heavy towing. Replacing a standard clutch and flywheel cost about $3000 whether you use a standard or upgraded clutch and flywheel.

If you Xtrail is an automatic, there are two types, the older multispeed automatics and the newer constantly variable transmissions. EBay often has Xtrails with failed CVT transmission abandoned interstate. the repair cost for a CVT transmission is around $8000 and many repairers will not repair them because they don't want to warrant the rebuilt transmission.

I know some manufacturers sell CVT cars with towing capacities but I would never own a CVT let alone tow with one.

Drawbar weight of the Xtrail needs to be checked before towing heavy trailers.

My 2002 model manual Xtrail and my sons 2006 manual Xtrail (standard clutch) both tow INMA (1500kg) competently.
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juan
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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by juan » Aug 8th, '18, 16:09

Thanks,

Geez, it gets more complicated very quickly!
My X-Trail is automatic and 2015 (relatively new, that's why don't want to change if possible).

No idea about the other details and the towbar specs. Will check later in the user manual.

Juan

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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by juan » Aug 8th, '18, 16:13

I think my car is this one: https://www.redbook.com.au/cars/details ... TM-407438/

It's a CVT it looks.

You say you wouldn't tow a large boat with that?

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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by colect149 » Aug 8th, '18, 16:53

I think CVT transmissions have improved markedly in recent years and there are a variety of suppliers, some with a fairly good reputation, some not so. The CVT is a more efficient transmission as unlike a torque converter, there is no slip and with infinite ratios it is possible to keep the motor in it's ideal rev range. I almost bought a new vehicle with a CVT a couple of months ago but got cold feet, pulled out of the deal and went with one with a conventional 6 speed slush box. But I think another few years and the slush box will fade into history so I think we have to accept the CVT until that magic day when electric vehicles become viable. (don't hold your breath)
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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by INMA » Aug 8th, '18, 18:17

Colect, I agree CVTs are taking the bulk of the new car market.

But modern manufacturers don't need to make tow cars to sell into 99% of the market so we will see towing capacities lower with new models.

Its getting harder to find manual cars for similar reasons. A friend just bought a Subaru with CVT and commented to me she was surprised that that model no longer as a manual option. That is just the way things change.

Its interesting how quickly the caravan market jumped up to 3000kg abandoning the old 2000kg tradition . The 3000kg vans are dominating the tow vehicle market with commercial vehicles becoming the more popular tow hack.

Juan, the coast road from Canberra has always had a reputation for killing tow cars. It depends how long you intend to keep the Xtrail.
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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by Tezza » Aug 8th, '18, 18:22

My previous car was a 2010 Merc B 200 turbo with a cvt. Which I had for 5 years.
Absolutely smooth as , immediate response and as quick as . No issues.
I’ve now got a seven speed auto and frankly I miss the cvt’s smooth continuous strong power available.
No idea about pulling power.
The one minus is it needed to be serviced every three years for a cost of around $700
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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by pdandy » Aug 8th, '18, 19:54

Juan, perhaps have a talk to some locals about their experiences towing around your area?

I scared myself going down into batemans bay with the noelex behind an auto challenger a few years back ( wet road, night time, brakes starting to argue ...3 kids in the back.....) , I've also come to respect the drive down to cann river....

ANY traileryacht is going to be pushing a softroader down those roads. Plenty of people do it, but perhaps factor in a different car in a few years time? Meanwhile, a softroader will be fine for local racing etc.
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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by Castle 610 » Aug 8th, '18, 21:32

Hi Juan.

Castles are great boats. I have had two and the more l sail it the more l appreciate it. Lively enough yet self righting so make a good family boat. In fact they go better with a few people on board.

They are light but still around 1.4 on trailer so more than a Sharpie.

If you would like to discuss Castle 650s, towing up Clyde Mt or sailing on Jervis Bay send me a PM.
Stephen
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juan
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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by juan » Aug 9th, '18, 10:14

pdandy wrote:Juan, perhaps have a talk to some locals about their experiences towing around your area?

I scared myself going down into batemans bay with the noelex behind an auto challenger a few years back ( wet road, night time, brakes starting to argue ...3 kids in the back.....) , I've also come to respect the drive down to cann river....

ANY traileryacht is going to be pushing a softroader down those roads. Plenty of people do it, but perhaps factor in a different car in a few years time? Meanwhile, a softroader will be fine for local racing etc.

thanks pdandy, planning to spend Sunday at the CYC talking to trailer sailer owners. cheers

juan
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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by juan » Aug 9th, '18, 10:28

Castle 610 wrote:Hi Juan.

Castles are great boats. I have had two and the more l sail it the more l appreciate it. Lively enough yet self righting so make a good family boat. In fact they go better with a few people on board.

They are light but still around 1.4 on trailer so more than a Sharpie.

If you would like to discuss Castle 650s, towing up Clyde Mt or sailing on Jervis Bay send me a PM.
Thanks Castle 610.
Sailing in Jervis Bay is definitely one of the goals of owning my own boat. I have a few questions such as places to leave the boat over the summer (Callala Bay, Huskisson?) and how much that costs, and a few other questions. I've done a lot of camping so I know the area from the shore.
Where are you based?

Juan

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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by Castle 610 » Aug 9th, '18, 15:14

Hi Juan l live in Melb but have been to Jervis Bay a few times in my Castle. I usually base myself at the JB Caravan Park which has its own ramp. Alternatively launch at Myola ramp. Not sure about storage places though.
Stephen
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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by Bligh » Aug 9th, '18, 15:51

Don't forget that with tow weights it is based on an empty vehicle, add fuel (vehicle and outboard), outboard, passengers, supplies and SWMBO's make up bag and you suddenly have an extra few hundred Kg that you subtract from the tow rating.
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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by Castle 610 » Aug 9th, '18, 16:58

With my old car l didnt think it would make it up Clyde so we went the back way. Via Nerriga.
Stephen
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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by Frank Peters » Aug 9th, '18, 18:28

Hi All,
I would not trust CVT transmission for towing, specially Nissan. Modern auto is very economical, number of speeds increased and has lock up, no slip on converter. You can check on web.how many people have problems with CVT when towing, Good luck,regard Frank

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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by Bligh » Aug 11th, '18, 06:31

Don't forget the problematic Ford DCT that they deny has problems.
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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by garymalmgren » Aug 11th, '18, 20:55

Great thread. This is why I love TSP.
Juan will end up with the knowledge and the boat by dropping in here.
gary

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Re: new member, looking for my first trialer sailer

Post by juan » Aug 12th, '18, 10:40

garymalmgren wrote:Great thread. This is why I love TSP.
Juan will end up with the knowledge and the boat by dropping in here.
gary
Update:
Got in touch with CYC commodore, also with CYC Castle 650 class rep. Heading to CYC later today to have a chat and look at boats. Maybe I'll go out and sail. Lovely winter day here, at least sunny, not sure if wind will pick up a bit.
Will send updates.

Juan

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