Liveaboard Laws

For our friends who no longer are able to have a trailer under their Yacht ;-) and we all use a mast and sails at the end of the day (or start of the day!!)
User avatar
tonysail1
Able Skipper
Posts: 610
Joined: Aug 28th, '07, 01:18
Location: Breakwater Marina, Townsville

Liveaboard Laws

Post by tonysail1 » May 21st, '13, 21:34

I found out yesterday - very much to my surprise - that it is illegal to liveaboard your yacht in NSW, and particularly in Sydney. Something like 21 days in a six month period is the max allowable. I found this out when checking out mooring prices in marinas in Sydney after talking to someone about a job down there (which shot that job option out of the sky real quick).

I understand there are some areas in Queensland where Local Government by-laws make it illegal - such as the more posh parts of the Sunshine Coast. But as far as I know living aboard is fine in most parts of Queensland.

Surely the NT still has no such restrictions.

But what is the deal in the other states (Vic, Tas, SA, and WA)?
I believe Tas is fine for living aboard, but the other three I have no idea.

I am guessing/hoping at this point that NSW is the only state that has such restrictions. Apparently its something to do with supporting the housing market.
Jim Young Rocket 31

Too soon old, Too late smart!

User avatar
Cooper
Admiral
Posts: 8037
Joined: Jan 22nd, '11, 20:52
Location: Northern NSW.

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by Cooper » May 21st, '13, 21:38

Most areas in Queensland do not allow liveaboards either. Not to say that it is not happening but you have to keep a very low profile to get away with it. There are a few marinas that allow it but they up the rates to accomodate it.

It is perhaps the one bugbear in the plan to live on a boat in Aus. Nobody wants you to do it, the authorities, the greenies, the houseowners and of course, the jealous majority.

Coops.
Some people are like clouds. When they go away it makes the day seem brighter.

User avatar
tonysail1
Able Skipper
Posts: 610
Joined: Aug 28th, '07, 01:18
Location: Breakwater Marina, Townsville

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by tonysail1 » May 21st, '13, 22:55

I am not sure that's correct Coops.

Jacobs Well, Brisbane River and Brisbane Marinas (several) openly have liveaboards. Mooloolaba, Bundaberg, Gladstone, Keppel Bay (Yeppoon), Mackay, Airlie Beach, Bowen, Townsville, Cairns and Cooktown - all have liveaboards. That's not to mention any number of smaller places.

There are pumpout restrictions of course, but that is to be expected at any built up area now.
Jim Young Rocket 31

Too soon old, Too late smart!

User avatar
Furstin
Yachtmaster
Posts: 4708
Joined: Oct 17th, '06, 09:26
Location: Sydney

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by Furstin » May 22nd, '13, 13:46

I checked with a marina in sydney when we were considering an import, and liveaboard is allowed via loophole; you have to leave the berth for a weekend once every couple of weeks. (No problem there). Its when you are on a maritime mooring that you get in trouble, as you can only be there 4 weeks from memory. The liveaboards on this marinas moorings are overseas boats for the most part so are looked over.
Friends lived on their cat in a Port Stephens marina for 1/2 the year and cruised the East coast the rest - they has done so since 2009.
Borrman 38.

User avatar
Tumbleweed
Yachtmaster
Posts: 2007
Joined: Mar 7th, '13, 14:51
Location: Yeppoon, QLD

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by Tumbleweed » May 22nd, '13, 15:17

Keppel Bay Marina allows liveaboard. On top of the usual rate there is a liveaboard fee:

Liveaboard
$3.50/adult/day
$1.75/child 4-15yrs/day

still works out pretty good. eg:

rent a house = $400 (basic) a week = $20800 a year
Liveaboard less than 11m vessel = $6450 year + liveaboard (2 adults 2 kids) @ $3822 = $10272 (and that includes water and power)

Not that I would want to liveaboard a < 11m boat with the wife and kids :)

Would be worth it if you were saving for a house deposit or big trip or something.

http://keppelbaymarina.com.au/page/Marina%20Berths.html

User avatar
barnaclephill
Able Skipper
Posts: 1159
Joined: Mar 4th, '07, 11:02
Location: SE Melb

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by barnaclephill » May 22nd, '13, 17:05

tonysail1 wrote:I found out yesterday - very much to my surprise - that it is illegal to liveaboard your yacht in NSW, and particularly in Sydney.

But what is the deal in the other states .
I took a boat to Pittwater, north Sydney 2 weeks back. The water taxi man has a wife and 2 primary-aged daughters living on a houseboat/floating shed that looked like about 4x5 metres max with a mamimum of about one metre perimeter deck. That didn't look like a temporary affair.

Yaringa marina in Westernport bay, Melb charges $50 a month extra for live-aboards than for regular berths. And at Hastings in the same bay are live-aboards such as a friend and he says there are about 4 others there.
In the Gippsland Lakes, eastern Vic, are live-aboards, I'd say in the Gippsland Ports marina (amongst one or 2 others) that there'd be about 10 people living on board.
I get the impression that living aboard is the only independent option, apart from caravans, for those who can't afford a house, or are recently out of prision, long unemployed or divorcees, all of whom don't ususally have a lot of ready money. Then there are people who do it for lifestyle.
Illegal?: please obtain exact references to exact laws. Sometimes it's just localised by-laws from a particular marina or council-marina, rather than a blanket ban on all across a huge state. How do you get evicted from your own boat?
Northerner28.

Frank Peters
Able Skipper
Posts: 1689
Joined: Apr 19th, '09, 22:34
Location: Tanjil East - Moe

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by Frank Peters » May 22nd, '13, 18:25

Hi All,

for number of years there were people living on Gippsland Lakes on boats or so call boats.

Those who live in isolated areas did not seem to get much attention from authorities.

They eventually move on or disappear.

However, number of people living on board in Paynesville and Lakes Entrance were chased by council and they call them “undesirable”.

They shift the boat from one spot to other every day and use the loophole in local law.

I have not seen many this year and they may find better way to exist.

It is no fun.

Regards Frank.

User avatar
Furstin
Yachtmaster
Posts: 4708
Joined: Oct 17th, '06, 09:26
Location: Sydney

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by Furstin » May 23rd, '13, 09:29

You'll probably find that he's 'running the business' from the pontoon phil & Maritime turn a blind eye.
Borrman 38.

wowhunter
Inshore Skipper
Posts: 253
Joined: Jul 2nd, '11, 22:27

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by wowhunter » May 23rd, '13, 13:40

It says, in this
http://www.maritime.nsw.gov.au/docs/rec ... itions.pdf
NSW Maritime publication that:

"It is prohibited to permanently live onboard a vessel attached to a mooring licensed by NSW Maritime. Contact NSW Maritime for details."

From reading other forums, "permanently" seems to be interpreted as---- it was illegal to spend more than three consecutive nights on board or more than 21 nights in a given year--but I have found no official reference to this interpretation yet.

I found this
http://www.transport.wa.gov.au/imarine/19315.asp
for WA.
"Kapalua II" 41ft Ketch---gone to the dark side.
Used to own "Wilparina", a Boomerange 20.

survivalman
Midshipman
Posts: 7
Joined: Aug 11th, '14, 14:24

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by survivalman » Aug 11th, '14, 18:58

Wow , this realy blows my mind,

i live aboard in far north Queensland,and like tonysail 1 ,im looking at getting a boat from sydney area,
and was also hoping to pickup a few months work while down there ,whilst living aboard,

i certainly can not afford to fly down there , purchase a boat , and then leave it there go get accommodation
from some 150 a night hotel,

I find this crazy , and would like to know ,WHO polices such a law,
does some harbour patrol ,slash rent a cop water police come around to you at night
if they see a light on your boat and say you cant be there?

i read the pdf from the previous poster, wow crazy
but what about anchoring? they make a huge deal about nsw moorings etc ,
but what if you drop an anchor , is that illegal?
what happens if you get caught there , do they fine you? do they move you along,
never heard of such things up here , but it certainly makes my plans alot harder than they need to be

any other views on this? love to talk to some one who actualy has a boat there and knows the go

User avatar
Furstin
Yachtmaster
Posts: 4708
Joined: Oct 17th, '06, 09:26
Location: Sydney

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by Furstin » Aug 12th, '14, 12:31

Rules are as per above. If you live on a mooring from marina and move off once a month I think you effectively reset. There are certainly alot of overseas boats living aboard in some marinas for well over a few months.
Your own maritime mooring is anther kettle and policed by waterways officers who have thier own areas to work.
Borrman 38.

User avatar
RockMan
Able Skipper
Posts: 1886
Joined: Oct 10th, '06, 09:35
Location: Newcastle NSW
Contact:

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by RockMan » Aug 12th, '14, 15:41

Of course, when asked how long you have been there, you can always say you sailed yesterday for a day or two - therefore resetting the 28 days (or whatever it is).

I know some motor home people that get asked to move on use the excuse "we are not camping here, but having a driver revivier stop, if you would like us to move on, will you accept the legal liability for any accidents caused by fatigue?"

I also know of some liveaboards that move around the lake, to avoid staying at any one place for too long.
RockMan
Newcastle - Hunter Valley NSW
Catalina 375 #54 - Rock The Boat

Living the Dream

User avatar
IanB
Able Skipper
Posts: 957
Joined: Nov 14th, '06, 20:05
Location: Sydney St Ives

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by IanB » Aug 13th, '14, 10:41

If you are in the process of getting the boat ready for relocating, I am sure the Boating Services officer will understand, and maybe tell you to sail it every few days. Especially this time of year there are public moorings you can hang off for a night, and then return to your own one. They just don't want people forming floating derelict boat slums, and polluting the heavily boat populated Sydney bays.
Ian B
Investigator 563 #50 Yara
www.investigator563.com

survivalman
Midshipman
Posts: 7
Joined: Aug 11th, '14, 14:24

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by survivalman » Aug 13th, '14, 17:39

yes that makes sense ,lots of floating wrecks wouldnt look to good,still should have rights ,
probably just do that then , i dont see it taking that long to get ready , but if i get a few months work there id like to hang around while im earning money, and sorting the boat,

sailboatmike
Admiral
Posts: 5003
Joined: Apr 2nd, '13, 08:34
Location: Cranbourne Victoria
Contact:

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by sailboatmike » Aug 14th, '14, 09:14

Might be like the parking meter laws, if you eneter the roadway you are entitled to park back in the same spot as your time resets, I had a very annoyed parking officer watch me 1/2 pull out of a parking space then reverse back in, once my front wheel had crossed over the line I had entered the roadway so there was nothing he could do as I paid my meter, i just reminded him of the wording of the law, and off he went disgruntled that he couldnt book me :lol: .

So if you let go the mooring and pick it straight back up then you would of entered the waterway and time would reset, Im not sure if the onus would be on them to prove that you didnt (which it should be) or on you to prove you did
Cheers Mike
Macgregor 26X SeaYaLater
Hastings Yacht Club
Warneet Motor Yacht Club
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClULxh ... a5w/videos

User avatar
zebedee
Admiral
Posts: 10010
Joined: May 9th, '07, 02:05
Location: Bayside Melbourne

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by zebedee » Aug 14th, '14, 11:58

sailboatmike wrote:Might be like the parking meter laws, if you eneter the roadway you are entitled to park back in the same spot as your time resets, I had a very annoyed parking officer watch me 1/2 pull out of a parking space then reverse back in, once my front wheel had crossed over the line I had entered the roadway so there was nothing he could do as I paid my meter, i just reminded him of the wording of the law, and off he went disgruntled that he couldnt book me :lol:
Good luck convincing a magistrate with that approach.

AUSTRALIAN ROAD RULES - REG 205

205—Parking for longer than indicated

(1) A driver must not park continuously on a length of road, or in an area, to which a permissive parking sign applies for longer than the period indicated by information on or with the sign or, if rule 206 applies to the driver, the period allowed under that rule.



Parking for too long
Parking Time limits are set on parking spaces to allow as many people as possible to have access to an area. Where a parking control sign applies to a length of road or an area, you must not park there continuously for longer than the period allowed. If you stay longer you can be issued with a penalty. If you want to stay longer, you must move your vehicle out of the area between the two signs and into another parking area. Putting more money in the meter does not cancel out your obligation to move after the time limit is up, nor will moving to another bay within the same parking area save you from an infringement penalty.
A man's boat is his Castle. The Gippsland Lakes are my moat. Castle 650 #10, Roller Coaster.

sailboatmike
Admiral
Posts: 5003
Joined: Apr 2nd, '13, 08:34
Location: Cranbourne Victoria
Contact:

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by sailboatmike » Aug 17th, '14, 09:03

I apologize, I see the law was updated in 2012 and now reads:

Parking signs
You must not park continuously for longer than the period indicated on a sign in the area to which the sign applies. The parking limits apply during the periods shown on the sign. Outside those times, parking is allowed with no restrictions. When moving a parked vehicle to another parking spot, the driver must move the vehicle off the length of road, or out of the area, to which the parking sign applies.

Ref http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/Saf ... arking.htm

That just brings about more questions, does every new sign mean its a new area to which the parking limit applies, or if all the signs say 2 hour parking along that length of road is that one continuous parking zone?

I find that with many Vicroads laws, they can be very poorly worded, just take a look at the electric bike / electric scooter laws,

Quote vicroads

What is a scooter (foot scooter)?
A scooter is a vehicle with or without a seat that has two or three wheels and a footboard between the front and back wheels. It is steered by handlebars and propelled by pushing one foot against the ground
or by an electric motor or motors
(with a maximum ungoverned power output of 200 watts or less) or by a combination of these. Motorised scooters must not be capable of a maximum speed over 10 km per hour.

My question is - So any electric bike that can be propelled by an electric motor and has a footboard is a scooter even if it has pedals because it meets the criteria of being able to be powered by a motor. (and yes I know of someone who got fined $1000 under this whilst riding their electric bike which the police said was a scooter because it had a footboard, they took it to court and lost)

quote Vicroads
A power assisted bicycle is identical to a pedal powered bicycle, except it has an auxiliary motor. Power assisted bicycles have two definitions in Victoria:
A bicycle with an auxiliary motor(s) producing less than a total of 200 watts at the wheel, and where the power is additional to using the pedals.
Cheers Mike
Macgregor 26X SeaYaLater
Hastings Yacht Club
Warneet Motor Yacht Club
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClULxh ... a5w/videos

sailboatmike
Admiral
Posts: 5003
Joined: Apr 2nd, '13, 08:34
Location: Cranbourne Victoria
Contact:

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by sailboatmike » Aug 17th, '14, 09:03

I apologize, I see the law was updated in 2012 and now reads:

Parking signs
You must not park continuously for longer than the period indicated on a sign in the area to which the sign applies. The parking limits apply during the periods shown on the sign. Outside those times, parking is allowed with no restrictions. When moving a parked vehicle to another parking spot, the driver must move the vehicle off the length of road, or out of the area, to which the parking sign applies.

Ref http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/Saf ... arking.htm

That just brings about more questions, does every new sign mean its a new area to which the parking limit applies, or if all the signs say 2 hour parking along that length of road is that one continuous parking zone?

I find that with many Vicroads laws, they can be very poorly worded, just take a look at the electric bike / electric scooter laws,

Quote vicroads

What is a scooter (foot scooter)?
A scooter is a vehicle with or without a seat that has two or three wheels and a footboard between the front and back wheels. It is steered by handlebars and propelled by pushing one foot against the ground
or by an electric motor or motors
(with a maximum ungoverned power output of 200 watts or less) or by a combination of these. Motorised scooters must not be capable of a maximum speed over 10 km per hour.

My question is - So any electric bike that can be propelled by an electric motor and has a footboard is a scooter even if it has pedals because it meets the criteria of being able to be powered by a motor. (and yes I know of someone who got fined $1000 under this whilst riding their electric bike which the police said was a scooter because it had a footboard, they took it to court and lost)

quote Vicroads
A power assisted bicycle is identical to a pedal powered bicycle, except it has an auxiliary motor. Power assisted bicycles have two definitions in Victoria:
A bicycle with an auxiliary motor(s) producing less than a total of 200 watts at the wheel, and where the power is additional to using the pedals.
Cheers Mike
Macgregor 26X SeaYaLater
Hastings Yacht Club
Warneet Motor Yacht Club
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClULxh ... a5w/videos

User avatar
Tumbleweed
Yachtmaster
Posts: 2007
Joined: Mar 7th, '13, 14:51
Location: Yeppoon, QLD

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by Tumbleweed » Aug 17th, '14, 09:17

Not too many bikes with footboards. Got any pics of one?
--
RL28 "Windale" Located in Yeppoon, QLD

I used to have ambitions and then I started sailing, now everything else just seems pointless.......(Bixler McClure)

User avatar
zebedee
Admiral
Posts: 10010
Joined: May 9th, '07, 02:05
Location: Bayside Melbourne

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by zebedee » Aug 17th, '14, 09:32

sailboatmike wrote:You must not park continuously for longer than the period indicated on a sign in the area to which the sign applies. The parking limits apply during the periods shown on the sign. Outside those times, parking is allowed with no restrictions. When moving a parked vehicle to another parking spot, the driver must move the vehicle off the length of road, or out of the area, to which the parking sign applies.

Ref http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/Saf ... arking.htm


This is not actually the applicable law; it is VicRoads' plain english guide to the law and their interpretation of it. This is how the actual law applicable is phrased:


sailboatmike wrote:That just brings about more questions, does every new sign mean its a new area to which the parking limit applies, or if all the signs say 2 hour parking along that length of road is that one continuous parking zone?


There is a sign, which indicates a time limit. That sign must be either
  • At one end of a length of kerb subject to the restriction, with a different (or no) restriction applying in the other direction
  • In the middle of a length of kerb subject to the restriction
  • Applying to a defined car parking area, such as is typical at shopping centres, or where you see signs which say something like "You are entering a restricted parking area"


Once you pass another sign where the restriction applicable to a length of kerb changes, even if it's only a single space for a loading zone, disabled zone, etc, you are no longer within the area where the first sign applies.

Crossing an intersection with marked no standing zones at the end of the parking bays would do nicely, as would crossing to the other side of the road, basically moving to anywhere the original physical sign does not apply to, even if the new area is subject to another identical sign.
A man's boat is his Castle. The Gippsland Lakes are my moat. Castle 650 #10, Roller Coaster.

User avatar
barnaclephill
Able Skipper
Posts: 1159
Joined: Mar 4th, '07, 11:02
Location: SE Melb

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by barnaclephill » Feb 21st, '17, 19:03

You forget one thing.
Rich people with waterfront views do not want to see riff raff in the harbour. They will pressure the council into tightening marina regulations.
Northerner28.

User avatar
Furstin
Yachtmaster
Posts: 4708
Joined: Oct 17th, '06, 09:26
Location: Sydney

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by Furstin » Feb 22nd, '17, 13:18

Well its not really, what if you want to stop and recharge the bank account by working for 6 months? What about Cyclone season? While I appreciate that you want to keep moving, I for one would like to be able to take up a stop for a decent period, although I think I'd be on a marina in the work case anyway.

Mooloolabah residents are apparently quite active in moving on long term anchored boats.

Mat
Borrman 38.

whitepointer23
Inshore Skipper
Posts: 160
Joined: Jul 5th, '10, 19:02
Location: maffra gippsland

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by whitepointer23 » Feb 27th, '17, 22:57

whitsundays are full of liveaboards . a lot of nice people mixed in with a few druggo dole bludgers. when i transferred my yacht rego i had to have a queensland residential address so the lady at the goverment office made my address the boat name and mooring18 shute harbour. if liveaboards were not allowed surely the government would not allow that. also i have done some homework in port philip bay and found out i can not live on a swing mooring but there are a couple of marinas that welcome liveaboards if there boats look half decent, i know that because i got a quote and info from a marina manager. personally i think you can live aboard most places if you keep a low profile, maybe even move the boat occasionally.
brendan ...

sailboatmike
Admiral
Posts: 5003
Joined: Apr 2nd, '13, 08:34
Location: Cranbourne Victoria
Contact:

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by sailboatmike » Feb 28th, '17, 07:46

Some backpackers are treating the cheap keel boat as the new Kombi, Youtube is full of them and they make a few dollars by using the click bait girl in the bikini as the cover photo for each video they make and post.

Plus many have suckered people into supporting them via Patreon.

SV Le Vagabond get $7,000 per weekly video they post, by using the pretty girl in the bikini click bait formula to perfection, (the guy in that has the personality of a dead fish but the girl is very pretty) makes me sad because real sailors like Dylan Winters who is a real sailor and posts beautiful videos about sailing has had to stop production for a while because he is struggling for funds
Cheers Mike
Macgregor 26X SeaYaLater
Hastings Yacht Club
Warneet Motor Yacht Club
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClULxh ... a5w/videos

lockie
Lakes & Bays Skipper
Posts: 497
Joined: Dec 31st, '07, 13:42
Location: South East

Re: Liveaboard Laws

Post by lockie » Feb 28th, '17, 10:10

whitepointer23 wrote:..........also i have done some homework in port philip bay and found out i can not live on a swing mooring...........
You're right - the conditions under which Parks Vic issues by PPB mooring permit include a clause prohibiting living aboard. I'm not privy to club-administered moorings permits but I'm sure they are similar in this respect.

Nevertheless I know a couple of blokes who live aboard on moorings. The PV people have been squeezed so hard for resources that they really have no desire to engage with any non-routine issues unless there is an immediate and obvious problem.

I was originally a bit annoyed by the live-aboard blokes in our mooring ground, but they behave themselves and actually help with security so most of us are happy with their presence.

Cheers, Graeme

Post Reply

Return to “DARK SIDERS (Keel Boats)”