Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

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Shellback
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Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by Shellback » Apr 29th, '12, 16:55

Hi folks

Currently have our TS temporarily in the local marina and although we haven't hit anyone else yet, I'm trying to improve my control over berthing. We are in a 12 metre berth with a large and currently very tidy fishing boat on the other side of the pen.

I'm finding using the outboard for steering and fwd and reverse a bit messy with the TS tiller slopping around right alongside.

Outside the marina, I use the TS tiller and leave the outboard in the straight ahead position.

Inside the marina, it seems to make more sense to use the outboard to steer but then I have the tiller and rudder banging about getting in the way. The boat is also quite sensitive to input from the motor.

It's a drop rudder so I have tried lifting the blade until it's out of the water then last time, I took the blade right out before entering the marina. Both ways I still have the rudder box & tiller wobbling about banging into my new outboard and I have to sit down near the outboard to operate all the controls.

Didn't have any of these problems docking a 4 ton cutter previously and operating the gearbox with my foot...

I'm wondering if it may help to connect the two tillers with some kind of link and maybe lengthen the gearbox lever of the outboard so I can manage everything standing up. Has anyone else has done this kind of thing?

Forward controls may be another option but that seems like overkill.

I'd appreciate any suggestions from the tinkerers here...
Joe
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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by rseydler » Apr 29th, '12, 17:38

I use the tiller lock to stop the thing swinging wildly round and lift the drop board clear of the water and steer with the outboard. The tiller lock is simply a line that runs across the boat that I use to lock the tiller while trailering. Also works pretty well when sailing too 8)

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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by Cooper » Apr 29th, '12, 17:46

I too, used to be able to handle my inboard engined yachts with much more confidence and finesse than i can muster with the outboard i must say. :? The keel boats used to be predictable in their reactions whereas getting used to the massive differences of movement with differing throttle openings is something i have not yet mastered. Maybe i should let Vixen do it as she has no preconceived notions like i do. :wink: Then, when it goes wrong, i can just look at anybody watching and raise my shoulders and eyebrows in exaggerated frustration and blame her. :roll:

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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by sailingpeter3 » Apr 29th, '12, 18:51

For decades I've been locking the tiller with a simple string / cam cleat arrangement (see photo below), removing the vertical sliding rudder blade and steering with the outboard in tight places. The boat can be spun around almost in its own length.

I also use the tiller lock as a basic self steering device for brief moments. In the photo, my boat is sailing itself on Corio Bay.

Peter

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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by Cruiser » Apr 29th, '12, 19:45

Shellback wrote:I'm wondering if it may help to connect the two tillers with some kind of link and maybe lengthen the gearbox lever of the outboard so I can manage everything standing up. Has anyone else has done this kind of thing?

Forward controls may be another option but that seems like overkill.
If you are wanting to go the 'full monty' these links may help
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... de-18.html
[b]Connecting the Linkage[/b]... <http: ... e=channel>
[b]Linkage in Action[/b]... <http://www ... e=channel>
[b]Removing the Linkage[/b]... <http:// ... e=channel>
MacGregor 26S "Myuna"

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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by Arbee » Apr 29th, '12, 20:17

One of the unexpected benefits I found when we bought Candice was the ability to steer with both motor and tiller simulaneously due to the motor being in the well. Has got me out of a few tights spots without hitting anything :oops:

Robert

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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by Ukuri » Apr 29th, '12, 22:16

Shellback
I have the OB linked to the rudder using an adjustable SS control arm as below
Image

It is made from a cheap turnbuckle which I cut in half and then extended using a lingth os SS rod.
Image

Above is a view from above steering to Port. The linkage can just be seen towards the top of the pic.

Image

View from below showing the connection with the OB. It was bent up from a piece of 3mm X 80mm Aluminium flat bar.

The control arm should be the same length as the Centre to Centre distance from the rudder pintle to the centre of the OB swivel. The fore to aft length from the OB swivel to the connection on the OB needs to be equal to the length from the rudder pintle to the connection on the rudder.
Essentially the four connections must make a parrellogram.

Cheers
Chris

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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by brent53 » Apr 29th, '12, 22:52

Whether you use the outboard or the rudder, when in a restricted area have the centre plate/board down (if you have the depth). The turning circle will be at the least halved, far greater control than if it's up especially if running with the tide.
If you need to slow the boat down quickly, do a few small zigzags, the plate will act like a brake.
It amazes me how many forget to lower the plate only to witness them with wide eyes because their boat won't respond to the rudder or motor.

Cheers,
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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by zebedee » Apr 29th, '12, 23:54

Shellback wrote:I'm wondering if it may help to connect the two tillers with some kind of link and maybe lengthen the gearbox lever of the outboard so I can manage everything standing up. Has anyone else has done this kind of thing?
I remember that the geometry is a bit odd. I wrote about this a while back and I'm pretty sure I did a diagram. Let's see if I can find it?

....

Ahh, no less than 16 diagrams showing why it doesn't work and how to fix that so it does work really well. It's not very intuitive at first, but once you see how it works, it makes complete sense.

Probably best just to link to the previous post here.

sailingpeter3 wrote:For decades I've been locking the tiller with a simple string / cam cleat arrangement (see photo below), removing the vertical sliding rudder blade and steering with the outboard in tight places. The boat can be spun around almost in its own length.
I also use the tiller lock as a basic self steering device for brief moments.
Stephen specially asked if he could keep his fathers "patented tiller clip" off Roller Coaster for Mad Mouse. On Coriolis I use the tiller pilot, turned off, to hold the tiller when I need to pirouette with the outboard.
Shellback wrote:Forward controls may be another option but that seems like overkill.

I'd appreciate any suggestions from the tinkerers here...
I've seen an extension rod on the gear lever so you can shift between Fwd and Rev from further away from the motor. There's a 400mm long piece of 6mm stainless steel rod for just this application sitting in the passenger footwell of my car right now waiting it's turn to become the current project.
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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by MargGannet » Apr 30th, '12, 11:48

In a Hartley Association booklet on cruising is an illustration of a linkage for motor and rudder - will attach it if I can locate it...

A little keel makes a huge difference in handling as said above, and the other thing to do is to practise. At the Seamanship - seapersonship???? - course that I was a part of last year, run by my club, it was suggested that this was the key. Pick a quiet day and find a place where you can practise. use a mark and find out how far your boat travels without any intervention if you put it in neutral as you reach the mark. then try using reverse to slow/stop the boat.
Practise beside a pier, use spring lines, both fore and aft and see what happens. Get it right in quiet weather then you willl have a better idea of how it works with wind and tide etc, etc. practise three point turns.

The other thing they said was to only use the motor when needed - to do most manoevring in neutral, and use short low-speed bursts of motor when needed for control/steerage.

I have probably missed some stuff but I think that was the gist of it all - and I need to do more myself, too!

The other thing is that all boats handle differently, even within a class sometimes, because of the differences in them - outboard size, prop, hull shape, keel...

So have fun practising, and enjoy.

See you on the water - hopefully soon. :roll:

Found the pic...
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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by zebedee » Apr 30th, '12, 12:49

The Hartley diagram above clearly shows the pivots for the transom mounted outboard and the rudder to be an equal distance off the transom, which is not the case for most of us, using brackets.

It correctly shows equal length of the offset of the link attachment points from the pivots, perpendicular to a line joining the two pivots, and nicely illustrates that a strut does not need to be straight, just rigid.
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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by zebedee » Apr 30th, '12, 12:55

Just to illustrate, here are two of the diagrams showing ways to do this where the outboard is mounted much further back on a bracket. Notice that the linkage is parallel to a line joining the rudder pintles and the outboard pivot, not to the transom.

Image

Image
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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by MurrayF » Apr 30th, '12, 13:41

Our Ross 780 had the aft edge of the rudder cassette linked to the back of the outboard:

Image

Image

Image

It did help having the transom scoop to stand on to connect / disconnect the linkage arm. It remained on the outboard and had to be pinned to the rudder for operation.

We're looking to do a similar thing on our 650.

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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by HELLICONIA54 » Apr 30th, '12, 16:49

MargGannet wrote:In a Hartley Association booklet on cruising is an illustration of a linkage for motor and rudder - will attach it if I can locate it...

A little keel makes a huge difference in handling as said above, and the other thing to do is to practise. At the Seamanship - seapersonship???? - course that I was a part of last year, run by my club, it was suggested that this was the key. Pick a quiet day and find a place where you can practise. use a mark and find out how far your boat travels without any intervention if you put it in neutral as you reach the mark. then try using reverse to slow/stop the boat.
Practise beside a pier, use spring lines, both fore and aft and see what happens. Get it right in quiet weather then you willl have a better idea of how it works with wind and tide etc, etc. practise three point turns.

The other thing they said was to only use the motor when needed - to do most manoevring in neutral, and use short low-speed bursts of motor when needed for control/steerage.

I have probably missed some stuff but I think that was the gist of it all - and I need to do more myself, too!

The other thing is that all boats handle differently, even within a class sometimes, because of the differences in them - outboard size, prop, hull shape, keel...

So have fun practising, and enjoy.

See you on the water - hopefully soon. :roll:

Found the pic...
LOL. You beat me to it.I'm a Hartley ts16 sailor as well and have same info.Saves chewing your rudder.
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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by mees » Apr 30th, '12, 18:42

When you are after manouvering in a tight space there´s nothing better than an outboard. Keel down rudderplate up and keep your speed very very low. Just take your time and practice and you will know how your boat will react on your outboard actions.
Connecting rudder and outboard (with rudderblade down)willl limit manouverability IMO and over complicate things.You want to switch the damn thing off and tilt it up asap after all.
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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by zebedee » Apr 30th, '12, 19:28

Being able to reach all the controls makes a big difference. If you've got to turn your back on everything for 3 to 5 seconds and climb out over the transom just to shift the gear lever, you're doomed from the start.

A gear shift on the throttle, on a cable remote control in the boat or even just with an extension rod so you don't need to reach halfway down the side of the cowling makes a big difference.
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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by INMA » Apr 30th, '12, 20:39

"When you are after manouvering in a tight space there´s nothing better than an outboard. Keel down rudderplate up and keep your speed very very low."

I believe a keel and rudder down propelled by an outboard in a well works significantly better than an outboard over the stern.

There are so many variables getting in and out of a pen its a brave person who offers advice beyond the basics.

I am brave enough to note a stationary or very slow yacht with an outboard over the stern is difficult to control. Going slow or being stationary limits the speed you might hit something but does not give the skipper a reasonable opportunity to keep control of the craft. You are literally a sitting duck waiting for wind or current to push the craft towards danger.

I prefer to back into pens because it keeps me where I can best judge position of the yacht and pen. Keeping the yacht turning into the pen involves keeping a reasonable speed in reverse so the water flow over the rudder permits steerage via the tiller. When the yacht is in the pen, stop it with a short burst of power forward, then secure a line off the beam or stern to keep the yacht on its side of the pen.

Different yachts and different pens and jetties require changes to handling techniques, the big thing is to keep positive actions which determine the approach to the pen, don't rely on drifting and waiting to figure out what might happen.

Always have the first line needed to secure the yacht ready to deploy.
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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by byrdsworth » Apr 30th, '12, 21:11

Hi
I have made a device for connecting the tiller to the out board
I have made it so it can be very easily removed when required ( will take a photo and post soon)

It is great for general motoring .... but for tight maneuvering I disconnect it pull up the rudder
and push the tiller up out of the way and just use the outboard

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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by Castle 610 » Apr 30th, '12, 22:52

Zeb

If you want to link the two bear in mind the narrow stern on the Castle which means the rudder cannot turn all the way before it hits the outboard. Sometimes more steering is required so you have to turn the motor more than the rudder. Suggest getting used to the boat characteristics before investing in a link.


With the keel up, the boat is so slippery it just slides around so then it can be better to raise the rudder and just use the motor. By then its pretty shallow anyway. Down the lakes we use that method to get into shallow berths less than 30 cm deep (it seems).

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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by Shellback » Apr 30th, '12, 23:30

I reckon if Heath Robinson was still alive he'd own a trailer sailer.

Thanks for all the ideas and please keep them coming. There is clearly some interest in this topic. It will take me a while to go through the suggestions.

Personally my interest is in the hardware side of the topic so please keep the pictures and diagrams coming.

In particular Zebedee, that link to the "patented tiller " thingo took me to a discussion of tiller pilots. Do you have another link?

The tiller pilot discussion was in itself useful as I realised that my habits as a motorcyclist don't help in my throttle control with outboards which do everything backwards.

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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by zebedee » Apr 30th, '12, 23:39

Shellback wrote:...Zebedee, that link to the "patented tiller " thingo took me to a discussion of tiller pilots. Do you have another link?
No, it was just a reference to a recent post by Stephen about the clamp device he had on the underside of the tiller. The concept, if not the execution, was similar to the commercial Tiller tamer:

Image
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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by BosunBob » May 1st, '12, 01:30

Prefer to keep motor & rudder uncoupled. In tight spots to have the boat moving forward with the motor in reverse drawing the stern to the opposite side is an advantage sometimes. To turn the boat in the tightest circle the motor independent of the rudder is also good. Consider reversing out of a pen, the boat is going backwards with the rudder steering in the first desired direction, a burst on the motor in forward in the new desired direction until the boat stops and moves forward then the rudder steers in that direction. Hard to explain!
I have a strut for use on occasion eg launching, but it just locks the rudder centrally.

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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by MoodyBlue » May 1st, '12, 08:27

+ 1 for what Bob said.

In the case of transom hung motors you have a brilliant thrusting device at your hands. Being able to push or pull the stern around almost in any direction you want is something the other motor mount methods (well etc) don't have.

With short bursts in forwards then reverse for example you can virtually move the boat side ways without moving ahead or astern.

In those situations a linked rudder would be very frustrating and useless due to minimal flow over the blade. I did have one on our Boomaroo but used it once. The rattle and vibration transmitted from the motor into the tiller handle really annoyed me, plus it needed a quick release of some sort for when "Murphy" is around.

I've attached a pic below where I was turning Moody Blue around in limited space just using the motor. At that stage the motor easily overcomes any input from the rudder so I was not even adjusting the rudder position. (Photo by Madmission).
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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by colect149 » May 1st, '12, 09:34

I like Coops suggestion of letting the partner do the berthing and blaming her if it goes wrong.

I have a capable forward hand with a berthing hook and use the combination of motor and tiller, we get it right most of the time. Trying to berth a boat with a flat bottom without any keel down is fraught with problems, boats with a long skeg like the Sunmaid, Boomaroo and the Farrs make it easier.
Although I have to admit I had two failed attempts at a jetty this week with no wind and no tide, like I said most of the time.
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Re: Manouvering in Marina: outboard plus rudder

Post by mat stirling » May 1st, '12, 20:12

I keep them separate as well.
Fix outboard straight and use rudder for long motoring, yank rudder up, tie to side and steer with outboard when berthing with a little keel down if possible.

Castle gets blown around pretty easy and like to have full mobility when needed.
Wouldn't mind having a go of a linked set though.
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