The Shopping List......

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Pirate
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The Shopping List......

Post by Pirate »

The RL24 I've recently purchased has been a pure racer and as such its bare-bones in the way of "cruising equipment", it has an excellent array of sails/masts and is setup for fast and not much else !!
The boat will do 'some racing' but my main intention is to use it as a long weekender cruiser with the odd week-long run being most likely inland lakes & rivers etc with perhaps a chance of the odd coastal run with the family.

There's a few things I think I'd need to start the process off, some are not urgent and others are obviously a little more required as "basic equipment" items such as,

1/ Stove
what type of stove should I be looking for, gas or metho ??.... & what size, remembering it has to cope with a family of 4's needs

2/ sounder chartplotter / fish finder / or a combo unit ?
A chart plotter is I figure is a smart investment, especially for places like the Gippsland Lakes etc
& sounder is also a good idea for water depths etc, no point not knowing where your going or if you can even get there !
Subsquently a Fish Finder could double as a sounder I assume but useless as a navigational tool, but obviously it would be hand for the odd bit of fishing when the time presents itself

3/ Solar
With extended trips likely I'd need some way of maintaining a well charged battery that currently runs nothing more that the nav lights & the electric winch that works the swing keel and a CD player.

In addition to that there's going to be a 36lit Waeco fridge and some improved interior lighting via LED strip lighting, and the obvious phone charging facility.
I have a tig welder so any alloy or stainless welding can be done easily at home for mounting frames that maybe required, so,
What solar panel size do I need ?
How big a battery, or 2 deep cycle units, and again how big ??

4/ lighting
Cabin:
There's currently 1 double tube fluro, I figure the LED style strips are the go, can even get em with a remote and they can change colors too, just the right thing for a romantic night with the girlfriend..... I mean missus :wink:

Cockpit:
there's no lighting at all in this area, what would work the best here

5/ Boat Ladder
The kids will want to have a swim at some stage and I wont be far behind them, makes life a little easier to get on and off the boat..... the cost of some are such that its cheaper for me to simply buy one than sit down and make one from scratch.
but what sort, folding or extendable ???

6/ Marine Radio
there is a unit (uniden sea dolphin marine radio) already fitted but there's no aerial or base fitted, the coax has simply been cut where the base was once fitted.
what is a reasonable aerial and base to use or am I better to upgrade the unit and if so to what ??
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by Pirate »

bare bones interior pics....

Image

Image

Image

Image
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by pdandy »

On an RL that's going to be raced and cruised , try and keep things removeable and ideally have a box or two for family camping. That way, if you discover another sprog comes along you can take the gear to a noelex...don't ask how I know that....

So first things first, make up a v berth extension - that thing needs to be bigger!

For example - forget the marine stove and consider a trangia or other camping stove setup - depending on how comfortable you are with convenience vs risk - see the thread on exploder stoves being banned as a start....

Forget about wiring in lights - grab a few of those battery powered led units from the supermarket so the kids can have them wherever they prefer. ( including on the beach beside their swags)

Consider a tablet / phone for the chartplotter - it'll also be able to run racing programs like iregatta. Lifeproof cases , or defender cases etc with the unit mounted on a modified storm board ( with shading so you can see it).

Do you really need a frdge / batteries / charger for the lakes? We get by with an esky and restocking every 4/5 days at Paynesville - I hate the noise of fridges......

I use a fish finder for depth, mostly so it can beep just before I touch bottom - I rarely look at the readings but my younger kids occasionally look at the fish on it. Read up on mounting the transducer in silicone so you don't need to drill the hull, and consider using a swing out board.

Ps - Go check out your local aldi and see if any of those compact chairs from saturday are still there - @ $25 they're almost as good as a helinox and almost as compact. I bought 4 on Tuesday ( I already had a helinox for myself)
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by zebedee »

Paul has posted before I finished; a lot of what he says about basic stuff like using a trangia, battery lights, ice and esky has merit on the lakes, especially for your first trip or several before you sink dollars into adding weight!

Pirate wrote:1/ Stove
what type of stove should I be looking for, gas or metho ??.... & what size, remembering it has to cope with a family of 4's needs
Metho, without a doubt. Butane or propane inside the cabin is just asking for trouble.
Origo do metho stoves (tick the box for "alcohol") which use a unique cannister/burner for the metho and cannot spill, but they're not cheap. They're available in flush mount or surface mount, single or double burner.
Wanton appears to be an expert on another type of metho stove which requires a bit more finesse to light, he'll be along with a Beatles soundtrack shortly no doubt.

Bear in mind that many jetties around the Gippsland Lakes have free electric BBQs too, including Metung next to the pub and at least 4 pairs around Paynesville itself. (Raymond Island near the ferry, between GLYC and the Progress Jetty, further north of the Progress Jetty and at the ramp over in Newlands Arm). (Sunset cove too, Paul?)
Pirate wrote:2/ sounder chartplotter / fish finder / or a combo unit ?
A chart plotter is I figure is a smart investment, especially for places like the Gippsland Lakes etc & sounder is also a good idea for water depths etc, no point not knowing where your going or if you can even get there !
Subsquently a Fish Finder could double as a sounder I assume but useless as a navigational tool, but obviously it would be hand for the odd bit of fishing when the time presents itself
Numerical depth display only sounders are more expensive than fish finders.
Fishfinders are worth having for depth.
Chartplotters are a whole can or worms all of their own, especially on the lakes, you could actually do a lot worse than to use a tablet and googlemaps to start with. A good paper chart and a handheld GPS with a bunch of waypoints (no maps) is actually entirely adequate.
A man's boat is his Castle. The Gippsland Lakes are my moat. Castle 650 #10, Roller Coaster.
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by zebedee »

(Post was too long, system rejected it!)
Pirate wrote:3/ Solar
With extended trips likely I'd need some way of maintaining a well charged battery that currently runs nothing more that the nav lights & the electric winch that works the swing keel and a CD player.
Surprisingly, the keel winch uses very little battery capacity. Although it may draw 50 Amps, you run it for about 30 seconds very occasionally.

All lighting should be LEDs, which have absurdly low power consumption, typically about 50mA per lamp. Even a quite bright floodlamp may be no more than an Amp.
Pirate wrote: In addition to that there's going to be a 36lit Waeco fridge and some improved interior lighting via LED strip lighting, and the obvious phone charging facility.
I have a tig welder so any alloy or stainless welding can be done easily at home for mounting frames that maybe required, so,
What solar panel size do I need ?
How long is a piece of string!
Without an MPPT regulator, expect to get about 1 Amp for each 20W of panel in good sunlight. So for example, a 50W panel will give you about 2.5Amps in good sunlight perpendicular to the panel.

In Victoria, on a horizontal solar panel, you should average the equivalent of:
~5.5 to 6 hours per day in Summer
~4 to 4.5 hours per day in March and October - November
~3 hours per day in April and September
~1.6 to 2 hours per day May to August
ref: Melbourne, Australia - Solar energy and surface meteorology

So a horizontally mounted 50W panel in January should average about 2.5Amps x 6 hours per day = 15 AmpHours per day.

In summer the fridge will probably pull about 24 to 36 AmpHours per day.

On my own boat, with similar useage to what you're describing, including a smaller fridge that uses about 24 AmpHours a day in summer, PLUS about 15 AmpHours per day for a CPAP machine, plus heavy laptop use in the evenings I find a 130Watt panel with an MPPT regulator (10 Amps) adequate indefinitely October to March and marginal from April.

By marginal, I mean that I take advantage of the power points at Paynesville to recharge about every third or fourth night, which is not a problem in the colder months.

Depending on how much power your fridge uses, this suggests a 100W panel should be ample for your needs.

Have a look at photos of my setup for ideas for a simple support bow. I managed to avoid welding completely, except for the mild steel mast support inserts for trailering.

An MPPT regulator will give you about 30% more current from a particular panel. It is unlikely to be cheaper than a bigger panel to get the same power, but you don't have to find somewhere to put such a big panel.
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by zebedee »

Pirate wrote:How big a battery, or 2 deep cycle units, and again how big ??
Above 80 to 100 AmpHours they get very expensive and rather unmanageable. Start with one about that size.
Everyone will tell you that you must not discharge them below 50% or you will drastically reduce the life of the battery. Well, if you discharge down to 11V now and then and as a result only get 500 cycles instead of 5000 cycles, the battery will still die of old age long before you clock up 500 cycles. What do you pay for a bag of ice? Now does well under $1 per battery cycle seem unreasonable? After all, you shouldn't get that low very often anyway.

If you do find you need more, you can always add a second battery, either simply in parallel or on an isolation switch.

Buy AGM or SLA batteries. Do not use flooded cell deep cycle batteries around sea water. Acid plus seawater = chlorine gas, but also they simply aren't as durable and self discharge far quicker.

Seriously consider second hand AGMs off ebay.

Mount the battery alongside or forward of the keel case to keep the stern from dragging.
Pirate wrote:4/ lighting
Cabin:
There's currently 1 double tube fluro, I figure the LED style strips are the go, can even get em with a remote and they can change colors too, just the right thing for a romantic night with the girlfriend..... I mean missus :wink:
LEDs.
I've bought a lot of stuff off Bright Lights Auto Parts in Boronia, but there are plenty of other people selling good gear too.
Pirate wrote:Cockpit:
there's no lighting at all in this area, what would work the best here
If you mount a solar panel over the stern, you've got somewhere to put lighting too. When sailing you don't really want much, maybe a red LED tail light, but when you're rigging/unrigging at night or sitting about in the cockpit, an LED floodlight facing forward from above the cockpit is a really nice touch.
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by zebedee »

Pirate wrote:5/ Boat Ladder
The kids will want to have a swim at some stage and I wont be far behind them, makes life a little easier to get on and off the boat..... the cost of some are such that its cheaper for me to simply buy one than sit down and make one from scratch.
but what sort, folding or extendable ???
When you are floating in the water, the bottom rung needs to be deep enough that your knees aren't up around your chin as you climb aboard. I think three rungs beneath the surface (bottom rung 1m down) is a bare minimum.

The ladder needs to be mounted so that it doesn't swing past vertical under the hull. Because every boat is subtly different, there are many different designs on the market. Getting your ladder right is really worth putting some effort into.

I've got a telescopic 4 rung ladder hung off a fifth step at the transom. Getting back out of the water is easy even for a fat creaky old bastard like me. I have shock cord down the inside of the telescoping tubes of each side of the ladder to pull the bottom two rungs up so that if I ever forget to raise the ladder on land, I can't back the trailer over it and tear it out of the transom. In the water, I have to push the bottom rung down to get a foot on it, but that's just fine by me!
Pirate wrote:6/ Marine Radio
there is a unit (uniden sea dolphin marine radio) already fitted but there's no aerial or base fitted, the coax has simply been cut where the base was once fitted.
what is a reasonable aerial and base to use or am I better to upgrade the unit and if so to what ??
Is it VHF?
27MHz is not worth buying, but if its present and working you may as well leave it in.
If you build a solar panel support, that's a convenient place to get an antenna up above the deck without running cables up the mast. The antenna type depends on the band (27Mhz versus VHF) and on the mounting location.
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by sailboatmike »

pdandy wrote:On an RL that's going to be raced and cruised , try and keep things removeable and ideally have a box or two for family camping. That way, if you discover another sprog comes along you can take the gear to a noelex...don't ask how I know that....
Must of been a typo by you there Paul, you must mean a Macgregor :lol:
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by Bligh »

I find the GME antenna and base (with colour coding) are quite substantial and easy to fit as are their radios, I bought mine from autoelec Bairnsdale on ebay, good dealer and delivers promptly.
BCF are currently having a runout on Lowrance combo gps/fishfinder, I upgraded my temperamental Northstar with a Lowrance HDS 5 Gen 2 for $549.00 (no card).
Moodyblue has a nice ladder, can't remember the name but you can get multiple attachment points so you can bow mount as well as stern, good for me as I can't reverse park on a beach because of the skeg.
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by MoodyBlue »

Pirate,
If you are welding, then you should be able to copy one of these:
http://www.westmarine.com/buy/garelick- ... r--4684775

I have the aluminium version. It is super strong, very easy to use, very wide slightly curved rungs (good for older feet) and with an adaptor (home made) can be used on the bow, and they float.

The best use, although ours is used on land as well, is when climbing back aboard with flippers on. There are no sides. Pics below are the ladder on our Sonata 26

Happy to run the ruler over it and take more pics if it is of help.

Mob that sell them in AU want gold and first born for them though http://zoxoro.com.au/Products/Garelick- ... vQodHl8Hkw.



Cheers

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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by Bligh »

Before your arrival someone mentioned MP4 rather than a CD player, more compact and less battery drain and you can fit sooooo many CD's on a memory stick or SD card (mine accepts both).
Ebay, priced from $25 to about $150.
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by pdandy »

I had a ladder like moody blues on my careel and it was a PITA to get back on the boat in rough weather- I kept slipping my feet off and skinning my shins. That's why I like the closed loop folding ladder on my NX, although even that has issues- ideally I'd like to be able to lock it in the unfolded position so the kids stop trapping fingers :shock:

PS sailboat MC - it wasn't a typo - you'll notice I mentioned the boat was for racing as well as cruising so no, I'm not suggesting the poor guy gets a mc :roll:
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by MoodyBlue »

pdandy wrote:I had a ladder like moody blues on my careel and it was a PITA to get back on the boat in rough weather- I kept slipping my feet off and skinning my shins. That's why I like the closed loop folding ladder on my NX, although even that has issues- ideally I'd like to be able to lock it in the unfolded position so the kids stop trapping fingers :shock:

PS sailboat MC - it wasn't a typo - you'll notice I mentioned the boat was for racing as well as cruising so no, I'm not suggesting the poor guy gets a mc :roll:
PD,
I'll put money on it. It was NOT a Garelick ladder!! The rungs on our ladder are wide with plastic fittings on the end, PLUS there are wide sections of anti-slip material on the top of the rungs. Bare skin or shoes, or flippers do not slip on it.

Jeff
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by pdandy »

No need to take my $ , it was built out of stainless by the previous owner ( marine engineer scuba diver) , the rungs were wide tube and horribly slippery. The anti slip would have helped , but the easier solution was buying a noelex :wink: -


Ps following your link, how cool is this dog ladder? http://www.westmarine.com/buy/paws-aboa ... _-MB-_-PDP

Pps - read zebs recent sticky on excess quoting :wink:
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by zebedee »

Jeff's ladder is particularly suited to the narrow and small transom area available to mount it. It's a good example of the importance of having a really good think about the best way to do a ladder for a particular boat!
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by barnaclephill »

..with perhaps a chance of the odd coastal run with the family...

1/ Stove remembering it has to cope with a family of 4's needs
A double-burner stove will be better than single-burner. Something portable and cheap ($20 butane exploder) until you think of where it will go, otherwise I'd recommend a 2 burner metho stove. Origo or conventional.

2/ sounder chartplotter / fish finder / or a combo unit ?
On the contrary, I found the fishfinder quite a good navigational tool. If you do the 90 mile beach, then we cruised (night) between 15 and 25 metres deep, tacking when we strayed from those parameters. 15m was about half a kilometre offshore and 25m was too far to swim. The picture displayed is good for seeing channels and seeing abrupt changes and when a bank is shelving (as you approach to beach the boat & go for a walk). A fish-finder will give numerical display of depths and temperature changes (occasionally important). $150 or so and quite useful.
I find a chartplotter is overkill for the Gippsland lakes, and not accurate. Not even the charts based on navy hydrographic surveys are accurate enough for the detail you need there. A local chart (paper) is better. Free on the Gipps Ports website, or at the craft shop and newsagency, etc. $13.

6/ Marine Radio
Vhf is essential if you go coastal, as you'll get the repeater stations as well as talk to any shipping that doesn't see you. I've used it at 3 a.m. when crossing the shipping lanes very slowly and a ship was about 6 miles away and heading straight for us. I've also used a spot light roaming from my sails to near the approaching ship as I was entering the narrow channels north of Wilson's Prom, since I thought he didn't see me at all.

You can build up your gear from there. A compass or two and binoculars are essential, as well as at least 2 anchors with 100 m rode when going offshore. $200 Epirb later. Autopilot $600
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by zebedee »

barnaclephill wrote:A local chart (paper) is better. Free on the Gipps Ports website, or at the craft shop and newsagency, etc. $13.
Have a look at some scans from both the Gippsland Ports charts (available online in pdf format) and the Spatial Vision Gippsland Lakes Outdoor Recreation Guide.
I prefer the latter, but either is streets ahead of any other alternatives. Either could be adapted to use in OziExplorer or similar on a tablet.
barnaclephill wrote:Autopilot $600
There is an ST1000 (OLD model with the black case, rectangular buttons and no Seatalk or NMEA interface, NOT the current ST1000Plus) on fleabay at the moment.
Don't pay a lot for it; I don't think I'd go past about $200, but if it's cheap enough it's well worth having against about $600 for a brand new ST1000Plus now the dollar has crashed again.

Take your time, don't spend a fortune in a rush of new boat enthusiasm. You will never starve in Gippsland with everything from fish and chips through pizza to pub food and often lots else available in Paynesville, Metung and Lakes Entrance within an easy walk of public jetties, as well as pubs at Loch Sport and Swan Reach (and I am sure to have missed some). The butter factory wharf on the Mitchell River at Bairnsdale is a short walk from town too.
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by Pirate »

Thank you all ever so much, there is a wealth of info here that I've not seen in any other single thread, it certainly has made life much easier
:mrgreen:

right, so....

The stove should preferably be a metho unit twin burner

A Fish-finder for starters should take care of the sounder bit
Chart plotter for costal work later on maybe / iPad will be upgraded and use onboard for now

A Solar setup like this for example ???
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-12V-120W ... 3aad87aebb
and I can do the stainless framing without too major expense

Lighting will be LED strip lighting in the cabin, need a bit more research on the cockpit lighting and that's probably best done after the solar setup is fitted
In the mean time, cockpit lighting possibility => http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LED-Courtesy ... 3cde061ba7
:?:

Boat Ladder.....
the suggestions has given me a few ideas with which to tinker with, perhaps making one wouldn't be so bad once I've started on the solar panel support frame.
:wink:

marine radio needs upgrading for off-shore use..... a further down the track job there, in the mean time a simple new aerial and base will suffice for now (eg: b/day pressy from the kids ;) )

Battery...... like this one ?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/105AH-AMP-HO ... 3f3e461f7c
(current dead battery resides just forward of the swing-keel case)




&

relax guys, I'm in no hurry to put this lot into instant action, it will be done but in a steady as she goes me hearties pace, that way affordability and not making mistakes can exist together.
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by Pirate »

another thought / question.....
Modified Sine Wave 12V inverters, say around a 1000W, does anyone use them for heavier electrical consumption goods

?
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by zebedee »

I have a 1kW modified sine wave inverter I got for a song ($36!) on ebay. It lives in the ute and is used for small jobs at the farm, etc, when we don't want to have to drag the big diesel generator out, but it draws too much DC power at low/no AC load to use it on the boat for long duration small loads like phone chargers, laptop, CPAP, etc. Most small power tools with adjustable speed (drill, jigsaw for example) are fine, but if there is no speed control, then the starting current often stalls the inverter, so it's no good for my 4" angle grinder.

In the boat you're trying to minimise power consumption while meeting your needs. If you need AC (can't get suitable DC chargers for everything for example), get only as big an inverter as is necessary.

Solar panels - don't pay extra for two panels with hinges and other hardware, buy single panel(s). In Melbourne, Low Energy Developments in High Street Preston appear to the cheapest bricks and mortar shop. They also sell on ebay.

*Real* MPPT regulators (as opposed to conventional regulators with "MPPT" nicely printed on the case) are getting down to around $60 nowdays, buy with care. $ for watt they're typically still a bit more than a bigger panel, but when you are space or weight limited like on a boat, they let you make the most of the space you have got.

That battery looks like what you want and is a pretty good price for a new battery. A *very* rough rule of thumb is to get at least as many AH of battery as you have watts of panel. More battery will let you coast through more overcast days, more panel will keep you in electricity further into autumn/winter.
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zebedee
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by zebedee »

A man's boat is his Castle. The Gippsland Lakes are my moat. Castle 650 #10, Roller Coaster.
sailboatmike
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by sailboatmike »

pdandy wrote:PS sailboat MC - it wasn't a typo - you'll notice I mentioned the boat was for racing as well as cruising so no, I'm not suggesting the poor guy gets a mc :roll:
A Mac is awesome for racing back to the bar when the sail racing stuff is done :lol: , but I figure if you have a Mac you dont need to race to the bar as you would have your own cocktail cabinet on board and you can sip cocktails all the way around the course anyways
Cheers Mike
Macgregor 26X SeaYaLater
Hastings Yacht Club
Warneet Motor Yacht Club
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClULxh ... a5w/videos
sailboatmike
Admiral
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Joined: Apr 2nd, '13, 08:34
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by sailboatmike »

Pirate wrote:marine radio needs upgrading for off-shore use.....
Really. Offshore in a RL24??
Cheers Mike
Macgregor 26X SeaYaLater
Hastings Yacht Club
Warneet Motor Yacht Club
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClULxh ... a5w/videos
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Pirate
Inshore Skipper
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Joined: May 25th, '15, 21:24
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by Pirate »

sailboatmike wrote:
Pirate wrote:marine radio needs upgrading for off-shore use.....
Really. Offshore in a RL24??
ok.... I meant "coastal" crusing, but you knew that
:oops:
Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips ..... maybe ;)
https://www.facebook.com/RL24LightningJack/
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Pirate
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Joined: May 25th, '15, 21:24
Location: Victoria
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Re: The Shopping List......

Post by Pirate »

zebedee wrote:...Solar panels - don't pay extra for two panels with hinges and other hardware, buy single panel(s). In Melbourne, Low Energy Developments in High Street Preston appear to the cheapest bricks and mortar shop....
Interesting.....
I would have thought that a hinged unit would allow for an easy pack-up and storage solution when not in use, which is why I liked the unit, its simply stowed away when the boat is parked in the shed,
I also see many of these types of panels at the regattas I go to as powersupplys for the slip-on campers and roof-top tenters, which I thought would suit...
The other thing is how do you transport the boat with the panel in situ ? I assume you stow it for trailering yeah ???

Not overly concerned about battery trickle charging during winter for example as I have a small panel specifically for that task all ready from the car junk laying around.
Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips ..... maybe ;)
https://www.facebook.com/RL24LightningJack/
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